DEV BLOG Version 1.5 Dev Blog: Factions

Discussion in 'News & Announcements' started by Hummel-o-War, Apr 23, 2021.

  1. CyberMech

    CyberMech Commander

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    I've been playing PVP for 15 years now.

    Fight on ships is a living space, where someone is robbing an NPC, and someone other players. This is the same part of space as planets and so on.

    There is no need to make SC out of this game, this goal is simply not achievable either by the current forces or by the capabilities of uniti engine.
    The game has already implemented a survival system, the ability not only to fly through space, but also to land on planets where you can eat a dinosaur or shoot another player peacefully mining for himself ore. You can build yourself the ship you want, and not just be content with the created ship from the developer.
    Here there is the possibility of creativity, there is a + - living world which is not present in engineers, there is flora and fauna which is not present in most games about space.
    Yes, there is no physics in the game, but as I already said from Empyrion it will not be possible to make SC with all the desire, and I think it is not necessary.
    Yes, everything is bad in the game with infantry combat, and perhaps something can be corrected here, but I think this is not very important.
     
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  2. CyberMech

    CyberMech Commander

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    Most are simply afraid that another player will kill him, and the whole reason is because they either never played against people or their experience was a failure. It's always easier and safer when no one can kill you and you don't need to turn on your brain to avoid defeat.

    There are dozens of scenarios, but there’s zero sense. Everyone either plays one, also being lazy to do something themselves, or use the standard built-in game.
    Yes, there are really a lot of servers, the last check showed that there are about 1,500 of them, but + - 10 live servers are those servers with more than 10 people. Everything else is not clear why it exists at all ...,
    even if online on the server = 30 people for 120 solar systems, you have to search for people for 2 hours and it is not a fact that you will meet someone.
    About the ratio of PVP and PVE servers, I already wrote above why many people choose PVE.

    And I have a question for you. Are you capable of playing a game over 4-5k playing PVE only? Playing PVP or one way or another, building something for these purposes is possible and all PVP players have more than 2-3k minimum time in the game ...

    Maybe because such a script is not needed and because it is on HWS? Anyway, before Reforged eden began to attract attention and there were no errors with the new damage system, there were at least 3-4 live PVP servers from 10-12 servers in total. And before reforged eden there were PVE servers in general, pure PVE servers were 2-3 out of 10 ...
    And in general, what does the game script have to do with the CPU system? Why is it necessary to disfigure everything by getting inside the game, changing the strength of the blocks and so on?
    And why does everyone want to break what the developments have done, disfigure the thrust of the engines and the generation of energy on the power generators,
    add strength to blocks and so on? And at the same time they also advise others to also create their own Empyrion v2.0 and be sure to tell the developers "I don't like your game - and now I will make 5165165156 turrets for CV, and also a disintegrator for the planet" on their own server. Like you? - great!, But don't impose it on others! Me + - I like that vector of development of the original game, and if it were not for the obvious incompleteness of the CPU system setup, I would continue to ask only to add new shapes or folding wings for SV and everything in the same vein.

    P.S. They also say that the PVP community is aggressive and not friendly ...
    I just drew attention to the fact that the CPU system between the floors and the roof lacks 1-2 links and justified this by asking to complete the construction of the house. And in the end, on the forum, all and sundry are persistently trying to send me:
    1. Make your server.
    2. To turn the game inside out by rewriting the values of the devices.
    3. Go play PVE and enjoy life.
    And this despite the fact that I just drew attention to the existing problem ... I did not ask to add an orbital cannon to the game for the explosion of planets, calculating new parameters for it so that it would fit into the game. Didn't ask to add 54154151 hand weapon variations, 645145151 armor, 41541541 types of ships. And I didn’t even ask for a hand-held killer drone or a whale on which one could eat other people's ships ... And just finish the missing floor between the roof and the fourth floor. And maybe even without adding new devices! ... probably just by adding bonuses when summing CPU T1 + T2 + T3 + T4 levels as if you were using 4 PC i3 + i5 + i7 + i9 ... which is good corresponds to logic and common sense. But the PVE community took it as my attempt to get into their pants with the chainsaw turned on and raised panic and tantrum. facepalm, epic facepalm ...
     
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  3. Alhira_K

    Alhira_K Captain

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    It is just not feasible to continue balancing PvP and PvE at the same time right now, it would just be too much of a time investment, i guess. And i doubt it is even possible at this stage of the game; fully developed PvP games usually aren't able to properly balance them either. You will always skew it over to one side, no matter how hard you try. Or forego balance as a whole and create two different paths to go. Whatever PvP game i played i never succeded in PvE in my PvP gear and except on hilarious exeptions i never succeeded in PvP in my PvE gear.

    You would have to have a very sophisticated AI to properly emulate player behaviour without the need of cheaty HP and/or DMG trickery and even if we leave out Eleon capabilities of even creating such an AI and assume they do there still is no guarantee that balance will really be achieved as players (and especially PvPers) are exceptionally good in one thing: stretching the possible until the game breaks.

    To stay with your house comparison: why care about the fourth floor if the rats are still drowning in the basement? Personally i hope Eleon realized that balance is not an intermediate step in game development but the very last one you take.

    And while i am not a fan of the "do it yourself" advices given in this thread i do have to acknowledge some merits this way would have. One could eliminate Borg cubes simply by limiting the amount of turrets so you just cannot cover 6 sides anymore. Or remove hardened steel, combat steel and xeno blocks altogether. And with all the book-lengthy posts you wrote here you could have done that yourself.
     
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  4. ravien_ff

    ravien_ff Rear Admiral

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    I don't know what you're trying to say.
     
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  5. Fractalite

    Fractalite Rear Admiral

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    As someone who enjoys PVE over PVP in ANY game, thank you Ravien for making an awesome PVE scenario. :)

    Back when PVP first showed up in the gaming universe/pantheon I, like everybody, was kind of excited; here is this new thing and could be an interesting new extension of games/storytelling. The time frame in question was back with the first iteration of Team Fortress Classic, counterstrike, etc. However, now, years later, we know better; PVP is for adrenaline junkies or predators and is the reverse of the points made here. PVP is only ever firing at another ship/player model in an endlessly simplistic repeating cycle whereas PVE *can* have stories and art and dialogue - more to experience. Now maybe this increasingly hypothetical game does not have that or those elements, but they are the only thing that can provide diversity.

    Eden has more and more content and is, by far, preferable to PVP.
     
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  6. Alhira_K

    Alhira_K Captain

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    I'd like to contradict this. Proper medium to large scale fleet combat is still one of the best things out there, Empyrion just isn't capable of handling this atm.
     
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  7. ravien_ff

    ravien_ff Rear Admiral

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    I love PvP, in other games. But I don't play Empyrion to PvP. I play it to be creative and explore and build and blow up Zirax. :D

    There is nothing wrong with having PvP in the game, as long as it's optional (which it is). The problem is a minority want forced PvP, thinking it would somehow make the game better.
     
    #67
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  8. Kassonnade

    Kassonnade Rear Admiral

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    You show exactly here what you can't see yourself, but others can see. This attitude, which is widely documented, is what prevents most players from enjoying PvP. Players who are "too dumb to play PvP" (the no-brainers, like you call them) simply don't go PvP. The ones that try meet players that have problems and ruin the experience for everyone else, not counting cheaters. PvP can be fun among groups of friends, because no one will start describing the losers of a match like you do here.

    When defeat results from unbalance or bugs/ glitches, or players just starting their journey and having no experience, it has nothing to do with "not turning their brains on to avoid defeat" but that's the words you chose here yourself. What better example to show the very nature of what is repulsive in PvP ? Gaming has become a sad activity when one needs to berate fellow players to try to convince them that his/ her vision of "fun" is the good one.

    Quite the contrary, it's very easy : give NPC adequate gear that can easily kill a noob, have the AI search for the newest and weakest players and focus on them. Camp the respawn points and normal gear/ loot spots that noobs are forced to visit to gear up.

    When PvP players start saying that " human vs human is the ultimate challenge " it shows how shallow their thoughts are regarding AI.

    In any game, the computer knows exactly where the player is, what he is trying to do, what is required to kill him. It's the same machine that receives the player's mouse/ keyboard inputs, so it can easily adapt any NPC to the situation in a millisecond, while the player doesn't have this quality.

    NPCs and AI are made dumb on purpose, else players would not enjoy the game much. It's very easy to make bots that run straight to the player and perform perfect headshots non-stop, even running. But that would kill the experience, so they try to make the NPC motion a bit like "real people" who would hesitate, turn around when hit, etc. But they don't have to do that : they can easily win all the time.

    But at least, bots don't insult "losers"...
     
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  9. Khazul

    Khazul Rear Admiral

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    OK, well some of us remember the days before model hacks, aim bots, wall hacks, endless ganking in MMOs etc. Of course thats the older folks among us now (some of us from top PvP clans in our day in games like Quake versions, Unreal HL, TFC, CS, starcraft, tribes etc). 15 years ago it has already long turned to shit, so what is normal for you, to us is a bunch of people who really should be serving out ASBOs/community service orders and enduring a lifetime ban from the internet.
     
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  10. CyberMech

    CyberMech Commander

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    Am I forcing you to play PVP?
    I just want warships to be more Sci-Fi-like and have internal compartments, rather than flying sandwich toilets with no internal compartments! Because now, within 10kk CPU, this is the case! And it is practically impossible to create a warship suitable for attacking players or defending against attack within the framework of CPU 10kk, because this requires 15kk to 20-25kk. This is commonplace mathematics !!! Larger vessel due to internal compartments = more weight = more engines to ensure competitive maneuvering performance! Now, even if you are building a PVE research ship and want to feel safe, if a pirate player suddenly attacks you, then the weight of your ship must be at least 20,000 tons, otherwise you will simply be destroyed before you can break away from the chase and jump to another system !!! Have you ever read what I wrote earlier? Have you ever seen my PVE ship the link to which I wrote above ???? !!! Probably not, because you are still thinking in the category "I play a single game and I have enough plastic ship weighing = 5000 tons" ...
    Want to play PVE? I'm happy for you! - I'm not forcing you to play PVP!
    Do you like PVE and "invincible" ziraxes? - well! This is what you want from the game and you need it.
    But why do you want another players who like to engage in piracy and the hunt for other players to be an integral part of their gameplay, taking from 30 to 70% of the game time, to play only PVE, forgetting to ask their interests, or to play only PVP on reservation servers?
    And how will it hinder you personally and your desire to play PVE, the fact that warships suitable for both PVP and PVE will become safer for those who do not want to attack other players, but want to stay alive when they are attacked by the typical today PVP vessel 4-5 size class weighing 10-15k tons within 10kk CPU and without internal compartments inside? How does it hurt you? Can't you play pve? Or will someone force you to reach the T5 or T6 limit? Nobody is forcing you to build a T4 CPU warship without compartments now! - So why are you persistently trying to mislead everyone by raising a tantrum when the player asks the developer to complete what he started and not leave only one pve or pvp in the game in its current state as a pvp reservation server with flying coffins without internal compartments?
     
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  11. Khazul

    Khazul Rear Admiral

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    I do not see why ships sizes are a PvP specific issue?

    Even in the vanilla game today, I have ship designs that require an advanced core and device limits off because there comes a time when the novelty of spending two hours repairing after a 1 minute fight (the time it takes me to get the kill from first contact) with a zirax dreadnought wears very thin indeed.

    I fully support the idea of a tier 5 or a tier 6 etc and multiple shields etc. I also think that in late game, you absolutely should be able to construct a CV with weapons that function on a planet that will near instantly utterly destroy with zero risk whatsoever an early game low level POI using by loads of heavy advanced weapons. Hell - give me orbital strikes and nukes (SE has this and none was over complaining they were unbalanced etc - in fact you just just drop a large chunk of dense metal from orbit that is pretty much impossible to defend against without a bubble shield).

    After all, WTF is is the point in levelling and teching up if those gain pretty much nothing over early game enemies?

    We already have late game enemies that can cause alot of pain -its just a shame some of the other game mechanics make the after effect of battle very tedious indeed. Bigger ships, bigger battles TBH really need a significant scale up in support logistics (mining, repairs, supply production and loading etc) to become enjoyable once those vessels take damage and need resupply.

    This is an area where space engineers (especially with mods and scripts) has a massive advantage with its scriptable production and supply bases and massively scaled up mining possibilities. Larger scale war eventually become almost entirely about the supply chain and logistics and less about the mechanics of shooting each other. EGS has very little support for scaling up the supply chain and logistics to keep pace with combat. It just get worse in Eden reforged where advanced weapon ammo production demands are so high relative to consumption that people just give up . Even in vanilla this you can spend hours/days mining and making ammo that you can already burn though in no time in a T4 compliant CV.

    Also the hud we currently have is near useless in supporting combat where one blob looks like another and no sense of relative up/down or direction etc.
     
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  12. Kassonnade

    Kassonnade Rear Admiral

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    I suggested this some time ago on the New Pilot HUD feedback thread :

    newHUD-normal.png


    newHUD-fs.png


    It would be some kind of overlay on top of the regular cockpit view (or free view/ F6) with a zoom factor, so we can actually see more precisely what we are shooting at. This in turn could allow giving main weapons longer ranges (I would keep most turrets for point defense) in order to change the ship / ship combat meta so it relies less on armor and more on tactics and maneuvers. I have a plan...

    Ships don't have to be very big, it's just a question of balance. All values can be modded presently, and if huge CVs lack agility it's a bit normal given their mass and size. The CV motion when building without restrictions is rather off-putting and arcadey, with the ships shaking right and left rapidly following mouse movement.

    I know some players still dream of the ultimate jack-of-all-trades, but these always require extensive repairs after combat because they are far from being "specialized" for that task : masses of butter to absorb damage. That's not the only nor the ultimate way to beat tough enemies, but it sure is the first that may come to mind. I still remember how "unconventional" your own POI buster design was when you showed some screenshots on another thread.

    .
     
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  13. Khazul

    Khazul Rear Admiral

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    Given a choice between flying around in circles for an hour or going brute force for a minute with 2 hours of repairs and an hour of mining sathium, then I think I prefer the latter - I can always have two ships (one in repair and another to currently fly in). But flying around in circles to wear something down slowly waiting for turrets to do the job is mind numbingly boring to me never mind that it causes RSI as well eventually.

    In fact because of repair tedium, I tend to only attack what I have to for what I need and/or what will be trivial to repair, or require no repair at all.

    This is where a bigger ship comes in - more turrets = more hull space to mount them (device limits off of course, advanced core etc). The ideal kill is shield down in first salvo and able to drill though and core the damn thing before it can get your shield down - which when not evading, is basically another 10-15 seconds.
     
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  14. Kassonnade

    Kassonnade Rear Admiral

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    CVs only need on big gun, with 2x the range of all other weapons, and tons of damage per shot. The kind of bullet no one wants to stand in the way of. This would force maneuvering to aim (fixed weapon) and if the opponent tries to close in to rely on lazy turret combat then he gets killed before he can close the gap. This goes both ways. The idea was some kind of spinal gun, which I discussed a few times with another player on the forum, and this weapon would gain power with length, so a bigger ship (longer) could have a longer gun (think Mass Effect's railguns) but even a small CV T1 gun would be enough to take shields down in 1 shot and make a hole in the hull in follow up.

    Another player suggested complementing this with torpedoes : slow but devastating. These could be launched either from small ships coming close, or from far away, and the target would have to move out to avoid being hit. These slow torpedoes paired with a powerful main railgun would keep combat dynamic because players have a slow travelling threat on its way and another big gun aiming at them at max range, with faster projectile.

    This would also open the door to have smaller SV closing in and try to hit the enemy when the allied CV lands a shot that takes the shields down. Then point defenses start making sense, keeping these buggers at bay while maneuvering against the other capital ship. At close range, CV - CV combat would not make much sense because of the need to aim with main weapon and this is not as easy to do in close range as it is at a distance, and if one ship lands a shield-disabling shot then turrets can hammer the hull because in range.

    Not saying it would never happen, but encounters would surely be a lot more diverse, attacks being started at long ranges and possibly keeping the distance all along. Then ship design would not focus so much on tons of turrets, but more on strategic armor location, maneuverability and fighter support/ torpedoes, and some turrets for point defense.

    The BA / POI or AI ship counterpart (to be fair) could then be one turret of similar capabilities (range + damage) with a slower rotation rate.

    We can do all this right now if we want, apart from the power of the main gun scaling up with the length. But this part is not really vital, as it can't be done for the BA / POI or AI ships Big Turret.
     
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  15. Khazul

    Khazul Rear Admiral

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    OK, but you can make a bigger ship now without modding - switch CPU and limits off, or play with CPU on and switch limits off and use an advanced core. No modding needed.

    In SE there were all sort of fun and spectacular weapons available as mods - including insta-kill very long range (10km) spinal type continuous beam weapons. One of may favourites was a rail gun - think hyperveloity heavy slug with a modelled plasma explosion effect on impact and full penetration until depleted. If the slug survived right though then you get another plasma explosion on exit and the process repeats for anything else that might be in the way (of course wiuth less damage due to much less energy left to impart).

    The heavy beam weapons could cut a ship in half at upto 10km away - you needed to use a camera block to see and aim that far (it had zoom). Then add mods that caused fuel tanks and reactors to explode like nukes and well combat could be extremely brutal but also very spectacular :)

    Balance be damned - have fun blowing shit up :)
     
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  16. Beasthammer

    Beasthammer Commander

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    all of this is good... But what is the purpose of the pvp here in this game? To tell the truth i have never tried it... Hell (after i saw space combat) i wouldn't even dare to... But why?
    There is offline protection, there is infinity amount of resources in almost every system... You do not need to try hard, it is just there... What is the prize for winning a battle? Salvage? (the raw time to salvage a bigger ship is equal to mine all the asteroids in the current system) so definetly not resources. Then? Maybe a list? (ranking?)

    So i don't really see anything which could make it interesting, maybe it is fun to gun down players but with the current state of "movement" i hardly see to have enjoyable fights like in Dreadnaught... There are no roles... (support, tank, dps) no specialities. Why build a giant ship when you can run around with sticks and beat each other to death? (sounds more fun than actual space combat) Half of the projectiles wont even hit the target in SINGLEPLAYER! What do you expect from servers with ping? :D

    In EVE Online you will regret every mistake you make because there is punishment, but you will try because there is a big prize too, modules, weapons etc... In empyrion every poi and every ship is made of the same technology the same resources which can be found everywhere, there are no uniques (well except handgun stuff) but the game still lacks of crutial content what could make these things like pvp and exploration worthwile.
     
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  17. Kassonnade

    Kassonnade Rear Admiral

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    Oh... CPU... well that had nothing to do with CPU, it's rather a question of making space combat more fun and immersive, either PvP or PvE, because right now it looks more like sumo for steel cows.

    I already tested long ranges, slow and fast projectiles, only missing thing I did not try is making a big nice ball of energy to show the projectile travelling so players know it's the Big Gun's bullet heading towards its target.
     
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  18. Genza

    Genza Ensign

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    You are far from the only one who has problems with the way CPU system is setup. I myself dont like how it limits creativity and possibilities, but I do understand the reasoning behind it. However if developer sets it up to prohibit people from operating dreadnought sized vessels in one person, that is their choice. As many have mentioned before they have provided you with many possibilities to modify your experience if you do not agree with their vision.

    That beeing said, you really are looking for solution to your problem in the wrong place. No amount of changes to the CPU system will give you what you want. Even if all changes you want are implemented nothing will change about the situation you do not like. Sure, you will be able to run the pretty "realistic" ship of your dreams, but you will still fight it against big blobs of steel, thrusters and turrets with no compartments, they will just be that much bigger, more armored and more armed, as they will have more CPU to tack more stuff on.

    Pleople do not leave out internals from PvP builds because of CPU limits, but because they want to win and having a kitchen or a farm does nothing for them in that regard.

    To get what you want you either need to have server admins set a ruleset that requires all the internal bits and enfore that ruleset. Or an entire new limitation/requirement system would have to be added to the game, but that would have to be so complicated nobody would like it or want to program it. It would have to be something like crew requirement for devices.

    Something along the lines of all the big ticket devices requiring set ammount of crew to run. 1 crew would then require set ammount of food storage/processing, O2 storage, volume of pressurized space, bed to be installed in the ship to get 100% crew efficiency similar to CPU, otherwise devices would perform worse than optimal. IE if you install X amount of food storage, O2 storage, beds and pressurized intermal space you have Y crew equivalent to work with giving you space for Z amount of devices.

    That would force people to include internal spaces in more "realistic" fashion, however they will still look for ways to work around the system to do the absolute minimum required and maximize offence/defence instead. While it would be nice to force people out of the armored box concept, the ammount of work required to overcome peoples stuborness would be just insane to invest into.
     
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  19. CyberMech

    CyberMech Commander

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    I already wrote above that this will make it possible to fight on Sci-Fi combat ships. And flying bricks, as always been and will always be, even if the CPU limit becomes = 2kk. However, in this case, you can completely forget about any balance of PVE and PVP ships or balance of PVP-brick vs PVP-Sci-Fi. A simple example with a small car weighing 500 kilograms and an SUV weighing over three tons.
    You can, of course, do nothing at all, but then forget even a hint of a balance between PVP and PVE ships, because either a PVP brick will not leave you a chance on a you PVE ship, or you will be forced to play a single-player game or a game only on PVE servers.
    I have been playing this game for quite some time and I just want to make the game better, and that people people do not shy away in horror at the word PVP or when they are attacked by pirates or they were forced to hide "under the bed" on the PVE server so that no one can ever kill them.

    This gives the feel of a Sci-Fi ship to those who don't want to mutilate their psyche by flying on an ugly PVP brick. And also for those who do not want to be killed by a pirate player and want to be safer than on a civilian PVE ship. Remember at least the StarTrek Enterprise series, where they began their journey with research and thought that they would not need weapons, but then they not only strengthened the phase guns, took a team of marines on board, but also acquired military torpedoes.

    Server administrators, if not HWS, will always prune or remove Advanced core from their servers for fear of imbalance in PVP. And the Advanced core really does imbalance the CPU system. This is generally a very controversial decision, as if for a weight-volume system it was possible to install a device on a ship in order to completely ignore weight-volume - this seems more absurd than a logical solution. Although I think, more precisely I hope, that it was a temporary solution like a patch on a punctured wheel in order to get to the tire fitting.
    -----
    By the way, one more thing about the extended kernel - you can't get it even on the official eleon server!!! And some mistake or something else is to blame, but the ships in the box of which you can find the advanced core just broke down like many others. As a result, the advanced core seems to be there, but in fact it does not exist, , and with this, and in general any possibility of exceeding 10kk CPU.

    I have already suggested something like this to force players to make internal crew compartments so that the crew is functional and needs to be recruited. Of course, I suggested the maximum, but even if the NPC crew at least just adds bonuses and needs to be recruited in the POI (polaris maybe), it will already be very good.
    https://empyriononline.com/threads/working-crew-and-logical-cpu-system.97394/
     
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  20. Kassonnade

    Kassonnade Rear Admiral

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    Advance Core was a means to satisfy both sides of the fence, and to allow making special builds in a CPU enabled game without having to mod the files. It's not surprising in a game, we already have plenty of "suspension of disbelief" with gravity generators, teleporters, multitool, wi-fi building, blueprints, eating 2 dinosaurs per day, warp drives, enemies that spawn out of thin air, etc.

    Because a bunch of players pretend the game needs more constraints or realism, the developers make things like CPU / mass/ limited inventory, and then because other bunch of players pretend that a game has to allow fun above constraints the developers make things like the Advance Core and options to switch off some of the constraints. I think it's a fine way to allow a variety of game setups, provided the players or server owners use these properties.

    As for your wish to attract PvE players into you PvP realm, I can only wish you good luck. We have a saying in French which translated could sound like this : We can't attract flies with vinegar.

    Having a better CPU balance has nothing to do with PvE players not being interested in PvP, and scorn, insults, mockery or whatever you deem appropriate to address PvE players to promote PvP will not give you better results.

    If you just take one minute to objectively look at your own stubbornness, you could realize that everyone can have the same right to be stubborn and stick to what they think.

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    #80
    ravien_ff and Germanicus like this.

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