Hey Y'all With Alpha 11 mostly done, Empyrion is realistically a mature Alpha, missing only a few things to move on to a full Beta state and Public release. So its a good time to start talking about Balance and Game Progression as a whole. Balancing does not mean: making the game more PvP centric; nor does it mean making the biggest of builds both possible as a starting character or easy to manufacture at all. Balance means the game having a steady, and constant, progression, with late game being just as enjoyable of a survival experience as early game. Balance means challenge, not unnecessary frustration; it means the mechanics work as intended without favoring any play style. Game Progression must also be talked about. Are techs unlocked too early, not early enough? Is risk-vs-reward proper for those high-end materials? Are ships like Capitals available too early, do they dominate normal game-play too much? Please chime in with feedback about the overall balance of the game! Be specific but, remain objective! And feel-free to indulge in theory-crafting of the mechanics. Here are some questions to get you started: Spoiler Are thrust values too high? Too low? Do Containers hold too much, not enough? Are blocks to big to collect from loot? Do you get too much loot? Do you have to throw things away because they are useless? Not enough loot? Are you prevented from doing something you should be cause you can't acquire something? Do you use all the types of ships or just one? Are some ships favored too much over others? Etc. Dig deep into the values.
No I don't feel there is too much loot. If I can collect everything in one stop then it best be a small object I'm breaking down. To me even the building blocks are loot. Doesn't matter if you take the whole object or just the mats when deconstructing it to carry home. If i find a CV to take apart it should take me at least 3 to 4 trips if it's a large CV using my HV hauler. Same thing with POI's I shouldn't be able to bring it all home at once. Now if I park my CV hauler next to the item to be torn apart then, yes I should be able to take it all with me in one go even if it takes me a couple of days to break it all down. Now if we just talking about the loot containers then yes it's too low. If I want steel plates then breaking a few steel blocks down should give me that. But to keep finding low end loot is just wrong. Ore I don't mind, ammo is fine too, Guns even more. But electronic parts, motors, all the basic stuff you can get. More of the mid to high end stuff needs to be found. Please one last thing. The traders will only take in so many t1 multi tools per every few days. It's sad when you have to start putting them in the trash because there are just too many to sale or use.
I use all three type. But sadly the craft I like to use is dead. I enjoyed the nomadic life using a HV Camper to travel around building myself up. Then making my SV camper to expand outward and discover more. Head to the moon and get what I can. All the while living out of my camper. Then I would upgrade to my CV camper. This would complete my nomadic lifestyle. Was it a true jack of all trades? No not at all. If I needed that kind of fire power then I would make something that could take a few hits and deal out damage. My campers were never meant for heavy battle. Just a place to hold up and decide what I needed next to get past the next obstacle. But sadly because of how the CPU and speed has limited these types of build. At least for me. My nomadic life is now gone. Now I have to have so many more ship types I have to have a place to store them now. I have an SV scout, SV fighter, SV hauler. In the HV range I have my HV hauler, HV Tank, My HV Drill. Now I have to have more then one CV one for hauler and one for fighting. Now I have to use a base to keep this all in one place. Or more then one base. Sad when I have to go around pop'ing my own cores from my bases just so they will be safe while I'm away. Where before I could load up my HV Camper, SV Camper in my CV Camper and find a new and wonderful place to set down and start all over on a new planet.
Yep, I used to use a CV as a mobile base. Now I am not really playing. I might log in for a bit, but there is no burning desire anymore.
The thing that has stood out the most for me recently when it comes to progression and the flow of the game has been the blueprint system. I am honestly really starting to feel that it is killing the sense of accomplishment or drive. Currently there is really zero need to hand build anything and only a small handful of things you would ever need to unlock on the tech tree. All a player has to do is find a mine, dump some resources into a UI and like magic, poof any vessel in the game is theirs. There was no thought or sense of accomplishment in building my first space ship when it simply appeared out of no where. I remember spending days stuck on a planet in Space Engineers trying to get the parts and the build correct just to survive let alone the joy I felt when I finally managed to leave the atmosphere and into space. In Empyrion I had a 'just add water' base, HV, and warp capable ship in the first night. Now I understand that blueprints are probably quite popular with players that don't fashion themselves designers or PvP players that just want to get a ship and get into the action. But as this is a thread discussing the flow of the game I can say in my opinion that yes, we get vehicles too fast. Funny thing is it doesn't matter if you get materials too quickly as they are honestly pointless when you can magic box raw materials for anything you would have used those parts to make in the first place. Now I know some will suggest, well then just don't use the blueprints but that is not a solution. If you put a button in a game that insta kills any mob you use it on and then tell players don't use it if you don't want to it doesn't make it a valid design choice. Empyrion currently stands really as the only option for any meaningful PvE content in a space sandbox sim and I really hope they continue to develop along those lines. During betas players do tend to gain access to things faster so they can be tested properly so if that is the case now I respect that. I just hope when the game goes gold things significantly slow down and the greatest gains in the game truly become the things of legends.
Something about this playstyle: Is it out of the question to create a small base on planets, or in their orbits, as you visit them? It is fairly clear that the design of modular bases and base blueprints is to allow for rapid drop of small bases, something akin to a nomad moving their tent. This works great when combined with nearby ore deposits and the use of a forge. When it does come to these CVs though, why specifically can you not use them as a mobile base under the current setup? How much are you putting on the CV that you have gone over CPU limits? Have you attempted a build without RCS to greatly reduce your needs? This sounds like some pretty good progression! And it follows with what some of the stated goals are for the game, needing shelter, needing to expand and grow, needing to revise builds. However, testing, that I've done at least, shows a fine HV 'camper' with clone bay by level 5. On hardcore it took a day or so of play to gather everything to build it, while managing food, water, and oxygen needs on a planet where the heat in the middle of the day kills you. Its not top tier storage (and I would, and have, argued that the mass/volume mechanic needs fixed) but, its not supposed to be able to hold what a base could.
Well even my current play style is not close to what I was doing before. I do play with mass and volume on. So these ships don't carry a lot. Only my bases or storage lockers I plant underground hold the extra stuff. I always make sure I have complete kit outs in case I loose everything due to sudden death Do things need fixing? oh yeah they do. My biggest complaint right now is the fact the loaded speed is so slow now. I start feeling like i'm on a long 18 hour drive from California to Seattle just to go 4 k back to my base. Heck even an 18 wheeler once up to speed can go faster then most cars on the road and that's fully loaded. Yeah might take time to get up to speed and time to break but it can still go faster then what my sv and hv feel like they are going. I don't even think my dog would want to stick it's head out the side of my hv! Just not enough wind from the speed to flop it's ears around
I support the idea that weight should only affect acceleration and deceleration and not top speed. Just be careful at 70mps that one doesn't overshoot their base by 10 miles.
I've recently seen several posts about this issue. And yeah, top speed being affected is not the proper way to handle a ship with too much mass. Not able to lift, sure. Not able to attain 3m height, sure. Taking forever to get up to speed, sure. Not able to stop using that single forward thruster, absolutely. But not able to make 70m/s across water as long as the hover engines can lift it, absolutely not. Cut power and slam into the base a full speed. Just make sure everything is made from combat steel and repair afterwards!
I've seen a lot of great early access games (SE was once one of them and look how that turned out - Ugh), but along the way the cold hard realities of supporting PvP take over everything (dealing with griefer, exploitative play, endless whining about balance etc) to the detriment of anything else. Everything ends up having to be nailed down. Arbitrary hacky mechanics get rushed in to stop exploitative PvP only play styles and there is simply no time at all left for PvE content development or non-PvP specific feature dev and so it all just dies and you end up with yet another unfinished game that is only playable in PvP and the PvE experience was just far too thin once the novelty wears off and pace of change ceases. Lets hope this doesn't happen here, but there are some suspicious signs already.
I'll start by addressing the snips I've quoted. Progression is great, all the way up to level 25, when there is no more progression, and nothing more to progress towards. The only reason we really have a level cap here is that there's nothing else past 25. Once you reach that point, you're done progressing. All that's left in constructing, now that you have access to all the various pieces and parts. As for challenge... At level 1 with only light armor I can take down Golems and Overseers with a survival tool. I rarely even build a drill, and if I do, it's to frustrate myself with the "Flatten" and "Fill" options that work just about as well as throwing cement into a fan. Mechanically everything seems to work pretty well, so no issues there. Tech unlocks are fine, no issues there. There's Risk vs. Reward? I must have missed it somewhere. Blocks are the size of blocks. Collecting them is not a big deal, and if you know how to build a decent vehicle, use Logistics, and make a WiFi device, collecting anything or everything is pretty simple. Too much loot? There is such a thing? I will say by the time I'm fully outfitted, it's not hard at all for me to accumulate massive amounts of everything from Steel Plates to Gold Ingots - more than I would need to construct a Dyson Sphere, if only we could build things of that scale. I blame myself for this more than anything else though. I love survival games, and I'm exceptionally resourceful. I also don't need to build the SDF-1 or a Voth City-ship to get around in - I do just fine in tiny ships. There's really one one thing that qualifies as "useless" and that's Anti-radiation ointment, so I just don't pick it up. Not enough loot? Nope, there's plenty to be had, and sometimes even more if you're clever. The things I am prevented from doing are things no one can currently do - construct a Portal, construct a Teleporter... otherwise, no, there's nothing I can't accomplish. And Crouch. We still cannot Crouch, though Zirax can just fine. Oh, I use all the vessel types - HV's, SV's, CV's, BA's, even my Motorbike, on a regular basis. Right now, once you construct a fully-functional CV and can traverse through space, you've kind of "won the game", as there's not really anything "bigger" or "higher grade" to construct. Ready for Beta though? No, not even close. Plenty of people talk about "End Game", but we really haven't even reached Mid-Game by the time we're level 25, with an army of HV's, a squadron of SV's, a Fleet of CV's and bases on every planet. There are simply far too many things left to be done, too much story to tell, and too many mechanics to implement, and that's just the SP side of the game. MP, on the other hand, is 80% dependent on the scenario(s) that are running. What we're really lacking at this point is a really good set of end-user usable tools to craft new scenarios. We do have tools, and a handful of people have done a pretty fantastic job of creating things with the tools we have. But we really need a great set of unified tools, not 27 different, disjoined tools to guess how to use. Beta is still a couple years away. Public release is probably a solid couple of years after that.
point is who the majority of player is on pve. If you consider the whole game population. ( customer base ), the pvp player are not the majority of people, but at the moment look like all the eye are under them. Point is who pvp is spoiling pve. In order to limit and contrast the usage of hack and exploitation of game dynamic they are forcing change who affect pve people as well. For example docked ship have no turret usage, no shield, and can`t dock or let other ship dock if they hare docked. That`s is the direct consequence of pvp abuse of game mechanical. i have ( and other i suppose ) a ship carrier ( my home base ) and i have serveral ship who haul other ship... ( ship transporter, ship trasporter with modular mechanism ) so all the time i have to dock my staff i have first to undock everyting who is docked on it. So that is an example about how pvp is affecting my game experience. Putting only one rapair bay for base and on one single direction is another one. So the minority of people on this game ( if you consider single player too ) count more than the majority. A better solution? Instead to force limitation and strange game mechanical....give more tool and freedom to server owner and let them dial with the problem....so pvp problem should be sorted by pvp server. And only affect pvp plater leaving pve player able to enjoy the game with out stupid and harsh limitation.
This has nothing to do with PvP. It's restriction on how the repair bay and repair bay console work. Multiple repair bays conflict in trying to pair with a repair console, which is handled automatically. Docking chains with multiple ships isn't a PvP restriction either. It's a technical restriction. It's simply not possible to dock 3 ships in series without causing desync issues between the first carrier and the third+ ship in the chain. Shield and Turret usage on docked ships is as much a PvE exploit as it is a PvP one. PvP balancing isn't quite so direct. You can see it in CPU costs for Homing Rocket Launchers. Despite being more advanced and clearly using more computing power than their unguided equivalents, they consume less CPU because they're the main weapon of PvPers. PvE combat is usually against slow-moving patrol vessels, drones or immobile base turrets, so normal rockets are more cost effective. Of course, both dynamics could be vastly improved by increasing the speed of patrol vessels and drones and reducing the output of thrusters to bring down the acceleration of ships so that other non-homing, non-hitscan weapons gain use in PvP. (And by removing the mass-penalizing top speed, since that problem takes care of itself in the bargain)
Is not true who player was using docked ships with shield on as a defence? Is not true to some player was usining docked ship with repairs bay on as a regenerative shields? If not maybe i dont have underatud well.
And anyway as i say on some post already. Stop uaing logic about cpu. Is just a game balance tool. If you talk about more cpu for more complex items it doens make sense if you think who eletrical light , steel or warevere block and also deco need cpu. And all of them need no computational resource to exist. Also when equipment is switch off use computational resource. So you realise who try to use logig about cpu resource is pointless. So why you try? Is a game balance features. And that's only matter for me.
New player. I like the game a lot, but based on your questions I think you guys might be looking at things the wrong way. From a SP perspective I don't think the game is lacking in or drowning in loot, stats, etc, or at any rate these are relatively minor issues. What it doesn't have enough of are the following: 1) meaningful stories 2) meaningful goals 3) meaningful character progression/choices Details below. -- 1. The game needs more and better writing. Traveling to new settlements, stations, planets and solar systems should uncover new characters, new quests, and even new factions. You can make the universe as big as you want, but the depth that matters is not spatial. It doesn't require elaborate set pieces or visual displays, just some bog-standard RPG storytelling, fetch quests, mysteries, dungeons. 2. Our faction choices should also have more significance, and we should also have more options for how to interact with them. For example, do I want to create my own sovereign empire? Or do I want to support the Talon Awakening and help them recover their lost lands? Maybe I want to work for big Polaris money and identify and found new resource colonies, or become a Zirax Supremacist and eradicate the Talon? And shouldn't all these choices be mutually exclusive, with different consequences in terms of survival gameplay? Maybe the Zirax are very naughty spacemen, but they have a stranglehold on the sale and production of certain weapons. Polaris meanwhile are neutral, but always control the most valuable resources and are the only source for autominers. Finally, the Talon are lovely and have unrivaled agricultural and medical knowledge, but are pretty low-tech and take a dim view of any deposit mining *anywhere* (e.g. you lose rep for mining deposits, but not rocks). All these things will be of more or less advantage to players at different points in the game, and navigating them would mean making choices that affect the early, mid, and endgame. I think there is some good stuff that could be done with placing NPC cores in conquered territories to convert them, with the POIs actually changing to reflect that, i.e. you destroy the Zirax core, replace it with a Talon core given to you by the chief, next load it's a Talon settlement. Similarly, it would be good if the solar system map reflected planetary control, showing influence by colour (e.g. Zirax controlled, Polaris controlled, Player controlled, Disputed). Just allowing players to see their conquests represented visually gives us something to aim for that isn't just the theatre of the mind. 3. Most RPGs, survival or otherwise, will eventually have you becoming world-breakingly powerful. This is fine, provided there is enough chocie along the way. Proper faction choices will help here, but it would also be nice to see at least a basic character tree. E.g. the ability to improve fitness (stamina use), endurance (food consumption), aim (recoil multiplier), jetpack proficiency (thrust multiplier), salvaging skill (quality of retrieved items), cooking (recipes might be something that should go in the tech tree), so on. Just changing the speed of leveling won't make the leveling system more interesting. But at least in the early-mid game, you should need to make more significant choices about how you spend your XP. -- I think these kind of changes, offering players more dilemmas and trade-offs, would go a long way towards giving players a sense of purpose. Tweaking stats without improving the context in which they're deployed will work for MP, but not for SP.
First, nothing personal Ronewird - your English-as-a-Third-Language sometimes makes it challenging to determine what you are trying to say, but I'll do my best to distill down what you've said as best as I can comprehend. If I missed something I apologize in advance. Vermillion, you grasp a greater view of a larger picture than most, so this next bit is going to make more sense to you than most, I suppose. Server Operators DO have a wide and powerful level of control over many of these "problems" already. Let's take a look at the Config.ecf, a file every server operator has access to: { Item Id: 2213, Name: FastRocketHoming, Ref: FastRocket Mass: 2, type: float, display: true, formatter: Kilogram Volume: 0.8, type: float, display: true, formatter: Liter { Damage: 2150 BlastRadius: 3, display: true BlastDamage: 1170, display: true Speed: 160 Range: 470 SpeedSpace: 225 RangeSpace: 785 HomingSpeed: 3.35 Ballistic: false } UnlockLevel: 1 TechTreeNames: Hidden } With a few simple changes here, that FastRocketHoming can become more devastating: { Item Id: 2213, Name: FastRocketHoming, Ref: FastRocket Mass: 2, type: float, display: true, formatter: Kilogram Volume: 0.8, type: float, display: true, formatter: Liter { Damage: 4300 BlastRadius: 6, display: true BlastDamage: 2340, display: true Speed: 160 Range: 470 SpeedSpace: 225 RangeSpace: 785 HomingSpeed: 3.35 Ballistic: false } UnlockLevel: 1 TechTreeNames: Hidden } Here we've doubled the damage, doubled the blast damage, and doubled the blast radius. Here's another great one: { Block Id: 272, Name: RCSBlockSV Group: cpgRCS Material: metal ShowBlockName: true Mass: 250, type: float, display: true, formatter: Kilogram Volume: 40, type: float, display: true, formatter: Liter IsOxygenTight: false, display: true IsIgnoreLC: true Info: bkiGyroscope, display: true StackSize: 6 BlockColor: "110,110,110" Category: Devices Torque: 100, type: int, display: true, formatter: NewtonMeter EnergyIn: 3, type: int, display: true, formatter: Watt CPUIn: 750, type: int, display: true BlastRadius: 4 BlastDamage: 100 UnlockCost: 4, display: true UnlockLevel: 5, display: true TechTreeParent: GeneratorSV TechTreeNames: Small Vessel } With one little change... { Block Id: 272, Name: RCSBlockSV Group: cpgRCS Material: metal ShowBlockName: true Mass: 250, type: float, display: true, formatter: Kilogram Volume: 40, type: float, display: true, formatter: Liter IsOxygenTight: false, display: true IsIgnoreLC: true Info: bkiGyroscope, display: true StackSize: 6 BlockColor: "110,110,110" Category: Devices Torque: 100, type: int, display: true, formatter: NewtonMeter EnergyIn: 3, type: int, display: true, formatter: Watt CPUIn: 375, type: int, display: true BlastRadius: 4 BlastDamage: 100 UnlockCost: 4, display: true UnlockLevel: 5, display: true TechTreeParent: GeneratorSV TechTreeNames: Small Vessel } We've just reduced the CPU cost of an SV RCS by 50% So server operators do have a tremendous amount of control over these kinds of things, should they decide to utilize it. Now I'm inspired... time to talk to the utility programmers around here....
I like a lot of your ideas, though your Talon faction would just become another Zirax. I don't see many people not mining any resources, so the Talon would basically be bulldoze bait. I know that would be my response, I need resources, you hate me for that, I will wipe you out every chance I get.
Does anyone feel that early game (level <= 7) SV unlocks are a bit of a mess at the moment? You cant make a thruster until 5, detector at 7 and yet a lot of other stuff is 3/5. If a basic cant be made until 5 (because of lack of thruster), then nothing should unlock until 5. I also think the detector should be a basic function and so also unlock the same time as the thruster. OTOH - mini guns should probably be your first upgrade after that.
