Well again, it sounds as if you're experiencing three things which are not normal: attacks which spawn in range of the base, instant hacks, and hacks which merely shut down a base rather than convert it to Zirax faction. That's not normal. If any of that is happening, it's a bug. As far as the actual strength of the attack against an early base... well everyone is certainly entitled to their opinion. I'm just trying to understand your reasoning. Below I'll give you a scenario to show you my reasoning (because I voted 'weak' on the poll), but first, I think we need to understand what we expect from a base attack. What is your idea of a balanced base attack? It can be anything from 'zero damage' to 'the core left at 1% HP'. That's the first thing we need to understand, because otherwise, 'balanced' might mean completely different things to us. For example, I like a little threat. I want an incentive to build better. For me, a balanced base attack is one which deals some damage, maybe takes out a block or two, maybe kills some critical devices. Something which actually forces you to get out of your armchair and do something about it. As long as I can repair/replace what was damaged, I'm good. You might expect something different from a BA attack. Knowing how we each define 'balanced' therefore, here's how my early games usually play out, regarding base attacks: I don't think the game is difficult enough. Therefore, I have manually edited the YAML files to allow starting on almost any planet, and to increase the difficulty of all playfields to 'hard' or 'ultra'. This means the drones are between level 6-8. I usually start by getting enough resources to build a small HV or SV. Building a base right away is, like you say, not going to work because you don't have the resources to defend it. An HV/SV will allow me to get those resources, as well as find a perfect spot. Once I've found a good spot for my base, and I have too much stuff to carry around in my HV/SV, I plop the base down. Previously, I will have used the mobile constructor to create a core, generator, fuel tank, and small constructor (if I can carry all that). I put all of that down, and immediately begin crafting turrets with all the resources I've been lugging around. Because turrets only take the basic resources, if I run out of one, I can easily take my HV/SV and go to a deposit, mine it out with the survival tool, and make more turrets/ammo. I find that four turrets is usually enough, even for the high level drones. When the attack comes, depending on how many rocket drones there are, I'll probably take some damage. If it's really bad, I might even lose a turret. But if I've embedded my core deeply enough into the base or underground, the drones never have a shot at it. If there are 2 or 3 rocket drones, I might need to shoot one a few times with my sniper rifle to keep it locked down until my turrets get to it. Because the first base attack can hold either three drones or one troop transport, any troops sent to hack the base are shot to death by my turrets very quickly. After the first attack, I simply get more resources and build more turrets. Once I hit level 10 and unlock flak turrets, the attacks just become a joke, as the turrets now have better range than the drones. How do you define 'balanced', and at what point in the game do you start building your first early base? Knowing those two answers will probably help to shed light on why we have such vastly different experiences with BA attacks.
I think at the very least, there should be some giant flashing red text that says, "New and returning players, for the love of god, don't drop a base at level 15". Last alpha I played i think was 8. Where that was very common. Now (again, new and returning players), you're gonna get face rolled.
Level 15? You're supposed to drop a base at level 3, simply for storage and crafting. The problem is that you get hit with a full attack before you're even able to defend your base. You can't even make turrets at 3. Base attacks need a cut-off point, so that any base below a certain requirement level is ignored. Either no turrets, or that the player owning it must be under level 7 or so. Those problems were all "fixed", some shortly after they appeared (Base attacks spawning within 100m of the base) and some in A10.6 (AI hacking range).
I would never build a base at lvl 3. If I do that, then yes, obviously any base attack is going to wipe me out. I build a small HV or SV with minimal cargo first, and use it to explore and find more resources. Only when that gets too full do I build a base, and certainly not before level 5. I will have also used the portable constructor to build the starter block, small constructor, capacitor, solar panels, and fuel/gen if I want it, all beforehand. Less downtime. I don't think you need a cut-off for base attacks if you're just smart about when and where you put one down, but I can understand the desire for one. I would mention that making the cutoff rely on no guns might not be a good idea though. That way players can simply build a base with no guns and never worry about the BA attacks in the first place. A level requirement is a much better idea.
Ah, but the current tutorial mission for new players requires they make a base as soon as they start. It doesn't even warn them about base attacks. So while you may not make a base as soon as possible, other people will. Those playing without the factory for example cannot produce an HV without a BA constructor to make the HV constructor for example. My latest playthrough that I started yesterday-ish I decided to not make any base at all and have been living out of my HV(s). But wouldn't be possible without the factory allowing me to skip the constructor requirements for many devices in my vehicles. Once the tech tree and factory placeholders get replaced, things will be very different and hopefully the devs will think it out first before rolling it out.
HV parts require BA constructors? I hadn't considered that; I'll have to see for myself tomorrow. And fair point about the missions; those need to be redone.
The problem is still the approach tactics of Zirax troops and magic abilities of the Talon. I put a post on the first page of this thread explaining the problems in detail, its a loooong post, but detailed. But from then to now it hasnt really changed a huge amount. I hope there are plans to seriously improve the AI in every area. Leaving it as it is now, forever, would be a poor effort I think. You should not need an HV to prevent your, more powerful, base from being hacked.....Its a little illogical. There are no longer any true primitive folk in the game if the Talon can hack. The story to the Talon changing seems out of place. The game could really use Data Pads, then if things like the Talon back story changes, like it has, and a player found a data pad on the ground or in a ship or something and was then fed that new backstory via an AUDIBLE system, male or female voice like your car GPS nav system, if you stop and think about that for just a minute, it could have really complimented alot of the new features now being added. The first mission in the Robinson Protocol, should be you finding a data pad, learning its system, and then it becoming a tool to find your way through the games story. Most of this game is awesome, best game ever for me, no question, but we should always strive to make things better. Some things in Empyrion could use some serious tender loving care = Improvement.
From a new player who has 100 hours in the game... Difficulty 1 worlds started out fun and challenging but as soon as i got shields for my base there was NO challenge at all. Difficulty 3 world was never a challenge since i had the ability to create shields right away and many turrets. I have not tried a world above 3 difficulty yet. I think base attacks should get stronger after a while. Start off easy then get harder and harder.. Encouraging you to take out the drone bases. OR level the attacking enemies to the players level.
Ok look, I clearly said twice that others are having this problem, its all over the other base attack threads here. My bases are "over-kill" and are actually for multi-player guilds, I have no issues in base attacks after mid-game. I am pointing out the flaws in how base attacks are implemented, as others have stated which is clear in my op. The implementation allows for random OP attacks at the point of this thread is for us to point out if its appropriate or not so it can be fixed if it needs to. I also gave at least a partial solution that base attacks should not start right away, and should not ramp up until players have had a chance to build defenses as well as making base attack size more dependent on base size. They should also be adding a base strength factor along with attack spawns NOT spawning inside a turrets max range. What is the point of having a base turret with a max range of 1000m if spawns are inside that?!? 1. No attacks within at least 5 days of activating a base so a player has time to gather materials for advanced features like turrets. Also, think about this for a minute....how do the Zirax even KNOW a base was "powered on"? It makes no sense and breaks immersion. There should be a better "trigger" for their attack. 2. Attack strength should be at least partially based on base size. 3. A base strength feature should be added to the game. A: Turrets should be assigned a strength number. More turrets, higher the base's strength. B: Shields and any other "defensive" item should be assigned a strength number. No numbers to cargo, constructors and non-defensive items. C: Attack numbers should be correlated to a base strength. More turrets? More drones/ground troops attack. 4. If one of the base attacks is a hack, we should be given an item we can build to help defend against it in some way. Like a Firewall to slow the hack down, giving more time to stop it just as an example. Another could be to add an NPC that can be hired that "blocks" hacks just off the top of my head. Possibilities to expand base attacks are endless. 5. Any new, upcoming "feature" that allows an attack to circumvent a defense, we should be given a "counter measure". Doing the above will prevent the random OP base attack at the start and allows people new to the game more time to learn and lessen their frustrations, it also does not force veterans to rush rush rush right from the start while also ensuring that base attacks continue to scale upwards more than they are now. 4 & 5 just plain deepens the gameplay. P.S. I also have a long history of complaining about how the game is losing its "Survival" and becoming too easy. The base attack feature plays no part in it. Worlds need to be populated with more life, both hostile and non alongside Eleon no longer listening to those calling base gameplay like gathering "grind" and making it too easy to get everything which is making the game too simple and borderline, pointless.
I'm sorry if I'm coming across as hostile or something. Such is not my intent. I'm genuinely trying to understand how we can have such radically different reactions to the same thing. You don't need to keep justifying your bases to me, mate. I like all of your suggestions. They're actually in line with what I've said myself in other threads. No disagreement there. The disagreement is coming from how we perceive the first BA attack, on a starter base. I'm all for scaling attacks based on how capable a base is of dealing with it. PARTICULARLY with guns and shields. However, we don't have that right now, and the question at hand is if what we DO have is overpowered or underpowered. This is, I think, the critical difference: when I get the first attack, with my tiny base with 2-4 minigun turrets, running off of solar energy only, and only a carbon SV/HV and a sniper rifle to my name, it is difficult. Blocks will be lost. Solar panels might get shot out. Turrets might go down. I will almost certainly die if I'm not careful. And I love it. To me, that's the only time in the entire game there is a real threat. I wish all the attacks were like that. Now to you (and I'm sorry if I misword this), I think it's safe to say you would say that is OP. Again, I don't think it is, and again, we're both entitled to our opinion. There's no need for either of us to try to convince the other. We're just giving Eleon feedback here. If we were talking about new players, then yes, I certainly agree that needs some work. Definitely something warning them about base attacks if nothing else, and probably quite a bit more. But that comes later. Neither of us are new players, so that doesn't really apply in this situation. P.S. Incidentally, if the Zirax land and try to hack, I personally find it a lot easier than drones. The soldiers go down way faster than drones, which means my turrets shred them, and I can one-shot them easily with my sniper rifle. In fact, the only time the Zirax have ever gotten close enough to hack a base of mine was when the transport dropped them in the middle of the ocean, where no weapons could operate. They walked right up to the base and hacked merrily away. Eleon: water, please!
Nor I. I am not really sure why you were taking my post out of context and making it sound like I am talking about the base attack mid or late game. Well, I was only talking about the initial base attacks in my OP and only that there are random chances of a base destroying attack within the first few spawns As do I, but that should not happen on an easy planet where just about all "new" players are going to be starting out to learn the game which was also part of my point. Perhaps base attacks should also have a completely different set of rules for the easy starter planets that is less impactful for those new and inexperienced players. I agree with the fist part. And no. I never actually said this is for me. I am giving voice to new players, inexperienced players and those that do not want it. None of this was an issue until Eleon started catering to those pushing ideas to make the game more for them personally, and back in 8.0 the game started being made easier and easier with changes to the base game instead of their listening to the rest of us that were asking for game option sliders so every single player could customize the game to their own personal likes. A base attack slider for example would have the effect of off, easy, normal hard, harder, extreme ie; off, 1 drone, 2 drones, 2 drones + ground troops, 3 drones 2x ground troops, 5 drones 3x ground troops. Instead, we once again have another part of the game being hard-coded that we are stuck with that a player will either be OK with or hate making it ever more niche. Applies for me because I want the game suited towards as many people as possible so if I see a potential issue I speak out about it even if it doesnt effect me personally. We are testers, we are supposed to be helping Eleon take notice of these things, not just stuff that affects us personally. So yeah, base attack strength at the start of the game is OP and thus not appropriate as they do not ask about the base attacks just in mid or just in late game.
I've been talking about early game bases. Very first bases. I'm sorry if it sounded otherwise; I'm not sure how that could have happened. However, there might be a discrepancy in how we DEFINE early game bases. I never build my first base until I can defend it with turrets. If that's not how you define early game bases then that could be the source of the confusion on my part. I totally agree with you about new players. And different attacks (or none for that matter) on starting planets is, I think, a good idea. But if that's the case, then I would certainly want the option to start on a non-starter planet (for people who know what to expect), preferably with a nice big warning that this start is for players who know the game. Ah, well, there's part of the confusion. I only came in at 9.4, and only started posting here very recently, so I don't actually know what the game was like before 8.0. But I whole-heartedly agree about sliders. I've suggested making things options elsewhere too. Less hard-coding, more options.
As @Vomgnar alluded to building a base now a days is very different indeed than it used to be. And it's really weird to hear folks saying they don't build a base until level 5. Makes total sense of course, but it's weird for an old timer. Used to be you rushed to get any kind of basic structure up in the first few hours, because nights were -scary-! Plant Monsters freakish howling, knowing they were coming for you.. you damn well needed walls up for that first night! (no 'sleep until dawn' bs back then ) And a base attack wasn't triggered until you -powered- the base up. So you used the portable constructor to refine ore, make each individual component... yeah. no smart constructors. you had to make enough electronic parts, enough motors, which required their own components... mining was easily only one tenth as fast, and no surface ore rocks, only deposits. No magic Survial Tool/Weapon/no-fuel-needed-Mining. Just a Bio-fuel powered mechanical Drill. Could take a couple days to mine enough & make all the bits needed to craft an ammo box, ammo, and a Cannon turret; plus enough Steel blocks to protect the constructor/genie/fuel/Core. No Concrete yet. And each night you're on alert & trying to keep the plant monsters at bay with your pathetic Pistol. While at the same time hoping for Plant Monsters to come; they have the seeds you're gonna need to grow food. So trying to lure them close but kill them a bit away from the walls, not too far though cuase the nights are dark, and there are many things hiding in it... Once you did, then you'd place the large constructor, que up -1- 30mm ammo, the ammo box, then the turret. (constructors had their own internal storage back then) Snag & place the ammo can the instant it's completed, drop in the 70 30mm rounds, anxiously wait for the turret to finish being made, snag that asap & run to place it on the roof. Even doing all of that, you didn't always beat the drone/s to the trigger. Now we wander around picking flowers that first day, tuck in at the conviently provided Inn for the night, or pop a tent and have a nice rest. --- To the Poll. Can't really answer it, for all the reasons already given. Can say it's easy to cheese though, just leave as Public, or switch to Public if player made. I'll revive something else that's old but related. Should be able to craft a basic assault rifle (and ammo) in the Portable Constructor. The improved Shotgun is great against the weakened spiders, but it's range makes it ill suited to take on drones. The basic assaualt rifle is pretty weak against drones but at least has a bit more range than the shotgun. Rifles range should really be increased too. ~68 meters? That's a paintballs range, not a "5.8mmBullet". Worth mentioning that the reason the Sniper is so effective against Drones is that it's using a .50 Cal round. Before the dumbing down, "Sniper Rifle Ammunition" was, ".50 Caliber"; still refers to "12.7mmBullet" (which references 50Caliber) in config. & btw, the Pistol used to use a .50 cal round as well. When the T2 version was player craftable, without the damned 'special upgrade' bits, it was a go-to early weapon. Worked pretty well against drones. anyway... enough already right?
New players dont know about this though. I used to be all HV with no base until I had enough materials to build a decent sized base before they added volume (which was a good addition) but just turned to building a small underground base to "hold" material and wouldnt even bother to power it on. Used the HV and survival constructors to make what little I needed the first 6-10 days or however long it took for me to be able to slam down turrets. And I always made sure I had cleared a promethium deposit and even checked the planet for golems for a small supply of rare ores.
To be sure, some modifications they've made are good. I'm no fan of grinding, so speeding up mining is, I think, a good idea. But the rest of what you said... man, that sounds fun. It would be awesome if they could introduce different modes into the game, and have a hard mode which is basically what you described. I don't think they could entirely remove the tent/sleeping, because there's beds everywhere. Instead of just making them do nothing, have them operate normally, but take a page out of a Skyrim mod I found: have there be a chance that you are 'woken up' by someone - or something - finding you, and you have to scramble to get your gun out.
I was mostly kidding about the sleeping thing @TGRF_Trainer It has it's place, especially if it could be interupted. And, yeah. Those were some fun starts. A lot more tense. At least that's how I recall them. And I miss that mean old Plant Monster Would be interesting to hear a newer players point of view if they rolled back to maybe Alpha 7? and tried a couple starts. If anyone does, well I hope they have fun and send a postcard about their adventures.
That poll, WTF has 3 votes haha, and that stands for What The Frek by the way lol, boggles one's mind ! Is it, WTF just happened ? or Is it, WTF is that laughable shenanigans ! or Could it be, WTF happened to my coffee ! or Just for some randomness, maybe its, WTF that really smells bad...... Some of us neeeeed to know.....
Grind is subjective and when it comes down to it, all gameplay is grind. Mining should have been changed via a gathering slider. from -10x to +10x the amounts gathered. This makes a game for every single player. If you feel mining is grind, you have your game with 10x the ore. If you actually like gathering, you have it set low or normal. 1 change and done. No changes to the base game required because changes to the base game is what every single person will experience when first playing the game and THAT is what needs to be kept solid. As for the ending idea, absolutely. A random chance of being attacked/interrupted while sleeping will fit in perfectly especially if they add in creature pathing so they are not just siting in their spawn area. As in, if a creature enters your tent range, you get woken up.
I find base attacks to be on the weak side. A single drop ship only reaches the ground as a flaming wreck. A trio of drones gets taken out most of the time before any of them can fire a shot. Only slightly better is the trio-of-drones plus drop ship, but this seems to come far too infrequently. Better would be a couple waves of drones, with drop ships approaching from other directions, or smarter still, setting down out of turret range and sending troops on foot, especially from multiple directions. I'd love to see some enemy HV action, but I'm sure that's far off for now. Some drone variety would also be nice - the rocket and minigun drones don't have much to offer - as well, when an attack fails, the following attacks should be stronger - more drones, more drop ships, add some bombers in there too - I haven't seen a Zirax bomber in a while. Throw in a plasma drone or three if smaller drones aren't getting it done. A bit of "I" in the AI will certainly help!
I generally agree here. Especially with the increasing difficulty. People have told me before that the difficulty IS supposed to increase after successfully defeating the BA attack... but I have never seen it do so. One thing I would like to point out though: dropping troops outside turret range will be even worse. Troops go down super fast against any kind of turrets, long before they can do any damage. I learned this when a transport dropped troops behind a hill where my turrets couldn't shoot them. The troops got over the ridge and died before they could even start the descent. Four flak turrets if memory serves.
