Experimental v1.3

Discussion in 'Announcements' started by Pantera, Dec 1, 2020.

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  1. krazzykid2006

    krazzykid2006 Rear Admiral

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    Already covered and nothing to worry about at all.
    Players can't just upload custom graphics. They can only be used on POI's (and only admin cored POI's currently).
    This means only the admin of the server has access to this feature in MP.
    If an admin decides to upload malicious graphics then they likely won't have players for very long......

    "Note: Please only use with ADMINCOREs (CoreAdmin, CoreNPCAdmin, etc ) for now, as decals do NOT work with Structural Integrity and cannot be removed or destroyed in Survival. The will remain floating."

    "Q: Can players place decals in their Blueprints and spawn them (on servers)?
    A. No."

    It's all covered in detail in the appropriate feedback thread. Here.
    https://empyriononline.com/threads/exp-v1-3-decals.96378/
     
    #21
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  2. elmo

    elmo Captain

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    Just started a new experimental game. could someone tell me if promethium was changed from nodes to old method that doesn't need a scanner or is this a bug.
     
    #22
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  3. Hummel-o-War

    Hummel-o-War Administrator
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    Not a bug. It should be voxels now.
     
    #23
  4. Combat Wombat

    Combat Wombat Captain

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    So mass still inexplicably reduces max speed?
     
    #24
  5. Kassonnade

    Kassonnade Rear Admiral

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    Do you know why, according to actual physics, it's impossible to reach light speed ?

    Edit : I have yet to build a ship that doesn't reach max speed easily. I think that this "problem" is an edge case, because not all players want to use max sized ships or carry a planet in the cargo bay. I don't even use the "boost" feature because none of my ship has problems reaching max speed.
     
    #25
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2020
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  6. CyberMech

    CyberMech Commander

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    This is all good, of course, especially since the scenario on the official server will grow over a hundred stars, but ...
    When make HV great again?
    Because now it is dead due to the killed maneuverability, even through the forest it is simply not possible to drive normally on a hovering tank, which is not affected by any friction. And according to logic and common sense, it should adequately turn around while standing still and at the same time for the player,
    so that the player does not have to lower the mouse to the floor because the table has long ended, and the HV has not even turned 1 degree ...

    At the moment, not only are HV missiles not able to hit the SV at all, which periodically just leaves the battle to quickly recharge the shields, so the HV can neither dodge missiles that hit it with impunity nor go around trees. I'm not even talking about the fact that it is no longer possible to dig on it while in a hole (P.S. here we mean adequate HVs with a storage volume of 20-32k, these are large HVs with a manned cabin, about small and worthless diggers with a small amount of storage and are not suitable only for starting the game).
    And even more so, this can be attributed to tanks (not to those cardboard tanks that have 1-2 layers of armor, but to ordinary tanks, the weight of which exceeds at least 150 tons), on which it is generally impossible to drive through the forest, which in addition does not breaks even if 30,000 tons are planted on it.

    Also, I am still worried about the fact that the CPU limit for the base still remains critically small = 1,300,000, which does not allow building 1 large spaceport with storage and production without littering a huge area with a bunch of useless small buildings that reduce the performance of the server and the user PC.
    And if at the start of survival it is quite enough for a wooden shed with a booth for little equipment, then with the development, the emergence of CV and the increase in the number of friends playing together, this becomes a serious problem. In my opinion, T4 for BA should be = 2,000,000, maximum 3kk.
    Just think for yourself that at the moment it is much more profitable and more productive to build a mobile plant / warehouse based on CV with a limit of 10kk than to build BA, and you must admit it is simply absurd! 1.3kk vs 10kk.

    And so everything is fine, space has become alive, there are a lot of planets, new NPCs of which you will add very well (if only they would learn to shoot while protecting the ship =))
     
    #26
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  7. Scoob

    Scoob Rear Admiral

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    But it should be possible to reach just 70m/s in space...eventually :)

    Some of my ships don't reach top speed when moderately laden. However, I tend to role play a scavenger, so I find the parts (Thrusters etc.) for my CV builds rather than just throw everything into the virtual Factory. This means some of my builds might be a bit compromised, but I like having to cobble stuff together from the parts I have to leave a planet. It's rare I'll use a BP for a CV, unless it was a WiP in a prior game I aborted due to an update, for example.

    This mainly applies to my CV builds, I do craft all (basic) HV and SV parts from mined resources.

    Scoob.
     
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  8. Kassonnade

    Kassonnade Rear Admiral

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    I think that because there are many factors into play that in some case it might be the shape of a ship that prevents it from reaching max speed...
     
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  9. Scoob

    Scoob Rear Admiral

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    Even in space? In my experience it's purely Mass that lowers the top speed, which still seems silly to me. I like how my ships become sluggish and harder to control as their carry-weight increases. I don't like how my top speed is artificially reduced. This has been discussed a LOT and the devs have tweaked things to lessen the effect of Cargo Mass on top speed, but it's still there.

    I used to like building cheap early-game HV's, SV's and even CV's that struggled to move. However, knowing I could eventually get it up to full speed was good enough for me. Plus it was a total hoot driving an overloaded HV regularly not looking in the direction I was actually going to drift around obstacles.

    Scoob.
     
    #29
  10. Kassonnade

    Kassonnade Rear Admiral

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    This is the thread explaining these mechanics :

    https://empyriononline.com/threads/a11-new-flight-mechanic-and-techniques.90893/

    At the top there is this short explanation =======================================

    Technical max speed = relates to rendering, collision and other game parameters. This is the absolute max speed that you cannot go over by any means (if cou can, it is possibly not intentional and a bug ;)

    TECHNICAL max speed should not be confused the TOP SPEED of your vessel. The latter can be much lower than the technical max speed. See chapter about VIRTUAL DRAG for more info.


    Lower on the page, "Virtual Drag" is explained ===================================


    The VIRTUAL DRAG, although it will have a lot of impact on the TOP SPEED (not to confuse with the TECHNICAL max speed of the vessel class; see explanation above) of your vessel and depends a lot on how you shape your vessel, is the feature that possibly requires the least of explanations.

    Why is it called VIRTUAL DRAG?
    Because it is NOT the physical (aerodynamic) drag alone, but a combination of a lot of factors. The term "VIRUTAL DRAG" is a hand term to describe the methods and factors used to define the TOP SPEED of your vessel (which might not necessarily range up to the technical max speed of the vessel type)!

    For example in space the single factor "drag", that you only have in an atmosphere, is of course not present, but other factors like mass and thruster capability are still weighted in.

    And lastly =============================================================

    Why is this also affecting ships in space?
    The VIRTUAL DRAG to some extend compensates for the inevitable technical limitations of the game environment and engine. Also, as we do NOT want Empyrion to be a physics simulation, we cannot fully use real world physics and mechanics, for example thrust power, mass, volumes etc.

    By limiting the technically limit the technical max speed, we have to finde a middle ground between technical possibilities and a gameplay that is fun but not too simplified. The VIRUTAL DRAG (As well as other feautures) add a new challenge in terms of an additional balancing parameter - which can be overcomed either by building and design or by using CPU Points in terms of investing in thrust or RCS.

    =====================================================================

    To summarize : "virtual drag" is a compound of several factors that include mass and "shape" and other things, and "atmosphere" is one of the components, most probably a "multiplier" in the formula. In space, this "multiplier" called "atmosphere" may be reduced or even disabled, but all the other factors are still calculated as part of the remaining "virtual drag" formula. If "shape" has a value attributed despites there being no atmosphere then it can play a role in the whole "Virtual Drag" effect.

    .
     
    #30
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  11. Dragon

    Dragon Captain

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    Interesting update, is this the upcoming Christmas update or just part of it?

    Custom factions and more NPCs is great, I suppose this means that NPC vs NPC combat also works properly now? Can't see the appeal of more factions and NPC models if they still don't actually work.

    The skill system is interesting, can't wait to see how this evolves. It would be great if character levelling actually means something instead of just being a wool-over-the-eyes tech research tree. I may actually play normally and level up properly one day instead of just skipping past it via console commands.

    Still some other thorny issues to fix though but, we're getting there. Good job.
     
    #31
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  12. Hummel-o-War

    Hummel-o-War Administrator
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    This is the Christmas update, but depends on the progress of the EXP if we can add in a few more things until the public release.
     
    #32
  13. Scoob

    Scoob Rear Admiral

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    @Kassonnade - I get all that, and I have read various threads on the subject. However, I still think this artificial limit to top speed just because I'm carrying cargo does not make for good gameplay at all.

    Aerodynamic drag (in atmosphere) impacting top speed. Fine. The fact that I'm carrying some cargo limiting acceleration. Fine. Cargo mass limiting lifting ability on a planet / Moon. Fine. Carrying some cargo limiting top speed. Not fine.

    It's not fun having a ship's top speed severely limited. It is fun having it not limited, but having the associated handling challenges due to cargo mass. I just don't see how my unladen ship being able to hit the class (HV, SV, CV) limit top speed, but my laden ship not being allowed to in any way enhances gameplay or works around some technical issue. I get that absolute top speed does, but not cargo-limited top speed.

    Still, this subject has been discussed again and again, but Eleon seem like like this limitation. It's just a shame that a perfectly viable craft, within CPU, within current Player-level Tech and using materials the player has gathered can fly / drive, but has its top speed crippled. I used to like how sluggish my laden HV's were early-game, but driving them in this state was fun and getting up to speed could be hilarious and challenging. Now they're just slow and, to be frank, a bit boring.

    Sure, we can add more thrusters, after adding more CPU, after gathering more materials, but it's a shame to be forced down this path - especially early-game - when the craft would be perfectly viable (if a pain to handle) without the Cargo-related top speed limit.

    It used to be that for a "Lifter" type SV / CV - those designed to carry mined ores or POI spoils - you'd give them great lifting ability (hence the name) to get off the ground. It was then a given that they'd take time to get up to cruising speed as their thrust bias is getting off the ground. I'm all for aerodynamics, but cargo mass meaning such a ship can barely more horizontally has been a problem since it was introduced.

    Edit: to highlight how silly this gets at times, I have some ships that, when laden with cargo, struggled to go DOWN. They have a good lifting ability from their lower thrusters, but their upper thrusters are weak. This is fine when the ship isn't carrying much, but as I load them up their ability to go down gets worse and worse - the Cargo's mass is lowering their top speed travelling in this direction. Sure, I could place better thrusters on top to counter this - CPU permitting - but it's sorta not the point lol.

    Scoob.
     
    #33
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2020
  14. Kassonnade

    Kassonnade Rear Admiral

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    Then why do you repeat the same thing ?

    You wrote : "But it should be possible to reach just 70m/s in space...eventually"

    I replied : "I think that because there are many factors into play that in some case it might be the shape of a ship that prevents it from reaching max speed..."

    You wrote : " Even in space? In my experience it's purely Mass that lowers the top speed, which still seems silly to me."

    Then I quote the whole explanation which makes it clear that only one factor is not applied in space (drag) and it is not even the real "physics" air friction, and "shape" is just a "profiling" of a ship to get another value to add in the mix - it does not "disappear" because we're in space, and it is not "modelized" against "air friction".

    So why do you keep repeating that the top speed in space is only limited by mass ? We all know it's a "phony" physics function, even Eleon explains it.

    But clearly, if you don't care either about shape or CPU or design, how can you expect that the function will not take these into account ? You even admit that we can add more thrust.

    And that's why I asked why can't we reach the speed of light. Do you know why ?

     
    #34
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2020
  15. fantomas

    fantomas Ensign

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    Will this require server wipe/new game on dedicated servers when it goes public?
     
    #35
  16. fligmin

    fligmin Lieutenant

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    It sounds and looks like Shape should be taken out of the equation when in space, The ship should speed up to the engines full speed over time although much slower with larger mass. Having more engines once in space should only get you going max speed faster. IMO , There should be no drag in space other than gravity and I don't think thats a thing. There fore an engine should be able to push something to its full speed EVENTUALY. Dats a no brainer. The back side of this is once you get moving stopping may be just as hard, eventually.
     
    #36
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  17. Khazul

    Khazul Rear Admiral

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    Oh...

    I guess its good for POI and playfield designers (?), RPG addicts and gankers. Didnt notice any fix to anything that is actually in-yr-face annoying everytime we play.

    Back to SE, Factorio and Satisfactory I guess....
     
    #37
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2020
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  18. Kassonnade

    Kassonnade Rear Admiral

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    It's just the way it is, as explained they can't make a simulation, and we just have to look at similar topics in more specialized forums to understand the scope of the problem - and they're not even including "weapons" and all the frills a game has to keep track of at the same time. To be able to accurately simulate physics in a game, either on planets or space, the amount of data to keep track of is too large, and too volatile, which would in turn force adapting very complex formulas to keep track of everything at each game tick. For example, how should the formula discriminate gravity in space, but not when close to the planet, then 100% when on the planet, without constantly checking the ship's position relative to gravity ? How would a formula discriminate the fact that a ship is spending bullets and energy at varying rates (turrets shoot and stop and shoot again, ship looses mass erraticly) whithout melting the CPU ? Aerodynamics and flight systems that try to simulate real conditions are very complex fields, and we may be asking a lot from the devs and the Unity engine. The formula is far from perfect, but I have yet to see anyone propose a solution instead on complaining, and I mean a "real" solution that doesn't require the devs to drop the game and spend a year in books to learn how to do it. Comparisons with other games also abstract the fact that the guys who programmed the physics in other games may be specialized in that field. Eleon guys may be more the "jacks-of-all-trades" types.

    That's where sacrifices have to me made. They did give us a "booster" function, and we can still get to max speed with more efforts. Nothing is perfect.

    ---------------------------------------------------------------

    There is no such thing as "emptiness" in space, else everything would be total blackness/ 0 temperature and radiation, zero gravity. Ever heard of the "solar sail" propulsion ?

    While I agree that with such low speeds like what we have in game, we should still manage to get to max speed in a "reasonable time", we just can not with a full load. To stay in "gaming terms" and since everyone agrees that "whatever the problem, the ship should eventually reach top speed in space" and that the big difference will be the time and energy spent to get to that speed, then we can figure that it just takes too long to notice.

    As for "speed of light" this is the game's ultimate limit. I know the difference is too large to sustain comparison, but I want to see someone plead that a small ion propulsor could actually move a Star Destroyer in a resonable time to be noticed, to use a better comparison.
     
    #38
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2020
  19. Dragon

    Dragon Captain

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    Cool, just wanted to know what to prepare for. I'm sticking to stable for the moment.

    Proper character progression was always big on my wishlist. I like RPG stuff, gives me something to work for, growing more powerful as I progress through the game. I hope the EXP system works out great.
     
    #39
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  20. elmo

    elmo Captain

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    I normally start a new game in single player, gather food and resources to build sv then go off and put game into coop so that my son can take me into space to get rare resources. When this is done he goes off then I go back into SP and I then build tanks and CV and just get on making everything we need to continue the game next time he can join me in coop. despite leaving myself in the base at the end of each coop game I now find when I go back into SP I ended up miles away from my base, unable to use guns, bike or anything in my inventory, this is the way we have always played and never had those problems until latest experimental game Have had to exit SP load coop and then SP again and again before I can use stuff like bike in inventory to get back to my base. Has anything changed which would affect my style of playing the game.
     
    #40
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