[Poll] Radical idea: Merging Building blocks and SI for ships (but not like you think)

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by Neal, Feb 18, 2017.

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Good or Bad?

  1. I like the first one (merging) but i hate the second one.

    9.4%
  2. I like the second one (generators strenghtening ships hitpoints), but hate the first one.

    23.4%
  3. I like both.

    40.6%
  4. They are both bad.

    26.6%
  1. Albert

    Albert Lieutenant

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    You can still make adjustments to ships. Bring it to a "factory" block that changes it from "live mode" to "build mode." Then u can make any changes, but makes the game more realistic and adds a new level of immersion. As far as breaching ships goes, each surface would have sectors so u can still blow a hole into the side to board
     
    #61
  2. MrFubar

    MrFubar Commander

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    How would you determine what the sectors are? It sounds like a lot of coding to get it to merge vastly different shapes and systems between all the different CV people can build. It would then need code to figure out how it wants to make sectors on ships of different sizes and shapes and calculate that, which eliminates any potential processor savings of not having multiple blocks. Merging systems also makes it harder to turn on and off individual items the way you can now through the P menu.

    I honestly think it would take a lot of extra code, extra development time, and not actually give any performance gain, and add in another system where something could go wrong.
     
    #62
  3. Albert

    Albert Lieutenant

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    Idk if you have read through all of this thread, but essentially, every surface on the x, y, and z plane would be made up of "segments" roughly 10sq by 10sq (this is undecided, im just using these numbers to make math simple). So a surface 32 squares long would have 4 segments (3 10 block segments, plus 1 for the fraction thereof). Each of these sections would be treated separately on each plane. So to damage the roof, you need to attack roof.
    For lower end PCs, this would really help the game run smoothly, especially when there are a lot of ships, or a couple really big ships, and things are exploding. Also would make repairing simpler, and would get rid of the whole "making 5 layer thick combat steel" tactic lol i dont play pvp multiplayer, i play pve, but 99% of what i read, is people absolutely hate it when you can just add layer after layer of combat steel to be invincible.
    There is also the added benefit, that some testing, developers could add something to the effect of ion damage. Target specific sectors of the ship to knock out life supports (could be brutal with the upcoming O2 changes to rooms in space) weapons, satellites (when they are implemented), even the bridge, making the ship unable to thrust, turn, etc for a brief time
     
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  4. GTv

    GTv Captain

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    The big problem I see is that my ships are never "done" to the point that no further changes will ever be made. My designs are living, growing and evolving structures right up to the point that I start a new game and leave the old one alone.
     
    #64
  5. Aurex

    Aurex Commander

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    I actually liked both of your ideas. It would be a TREMENDOUS (no Trump pun intended, I swear) opportunity to improve performance for those (like me) playing on a potato and a toaster. Also, it would make sense, since even now that SI is partially in place with bases, it does little to add something to the whole feeling of "bombing" an immobile structure, for it would rarely go down as you would expect... floating blocks are still an issue. At this point, I'd rather see a zone-sensitive hit point-guided damage systems that would show which area is generally the one being targeted (like you said, emitting particles like fire or showing other signs of actually being damaged to a certain extent). I do think, though, that making a structure effectively a single block would be a little too much. Maybe divide it in section, as to alleviate the cpu/gpu stress but so you can retain the chance of, for example, opening a large hole with your missile launchers in a POI without destroying the whole thing.

    Your second idea I like very much. It would be even more relevant when it comes down to performance. The only downside I see in this one is that you wouldn't be able to target weak-spots like the belly of a CV or the turrets from the get-go. It would be more like a battle of attrition like the one you see in Star Trek, instead of those you see in Battlestar Galactica (just to make an example).
     
    #65
  6. Albert

    Albert Lieutenant

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    I think that is the same with every player, honestly. But like i, and many others have said, when merge the ship, it is not a design set in stone. When you want, you can changer it to "build mode" to make modifications. I would like to see this implemented via a base or space station "block" that you have to be near, so it gives another added benefit to having bases and not solely relying on CV. Perhaps give larger CVs also the ability to use block, but can only build/modify SV or HV. Even though that would be a little inconvenient to not be able to modify anywhere, it adds a sense of realism and adds to immersion. Really, it makes 0 sense to be able to fly halfway across planet and be able to build or mod. Just my personal opinion though
     
    #66
  7. Albert

    Albert Lieutenant

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    You can target weak spots. Thrusters, weapons, glass etc can be destroyed separately from normal steel too. Also, each surface would be split into sections. So u can focus fire at center of 1 side and it would show damage gain, and eventually "blow a hole" right there." How sections are made, read many of the previous thread responses lol
     
    #67
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2017
  8. ITguy1981

    ITguy1981 Commander

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    You wouldn't need extra containers. Just make it so the shields lose power once the fuel goes below a certain threshold of 30% or 25%.
     
    #68
  9. blooddragon606

    blooddragon606 Captain

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    I like the concept...what about subassemblies? If I make a base, I figure out what I want my wall height, width, thickness, and material to be. The applicable number of blocks or ingots goes into the blueprint system and the output is a wall that I can attach to a base, CV, SV, or HV. This is how most modern buildings are built--not a block at a time, but a wall at a time. The same would apply to a foundation--define a slab of concrete, create a subassembly, put it in the BP factory and out comes your foundation, your walls--everything but doors, windows, weapons and lights.

    Lastly, don't make me place the core first. I always end up popping it out and making another one.

    I appreciate any feature that reduces part count. thanks for the post.
     
    #69
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  10. michaelhartman89

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    Would this work with structures such as buildings and space stations. I'd like to see a seperate feature for creative mode to merge the whole structure as 1 block.

    This seems like it would save on gpu performance and we could start a building thread for skyscrapers. I have about 6 buildings to date that I have been saving for a feature like this to be released. I have been waiting to build a metropolis, but it seems to require so much GPU.

    How would it perform if the buildings used only 1 device each? If we merged windows into the mix would it be hard on FPS?
     
    #70
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2017
  11. Cyntron

    Cyntron Ensign

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    I personally like the idea of having ship segments. You create a ship part, then solidify it into one big piece. Then you can connect ship parts together making less blocks over all. I also like the shields idea to eliminate multiple layers. But I do not like the idea of solidifying a complete ship and giving it HP. If it needs to be done, then it needs to be done. But I think the game will lose something out of it.
     
    #71
  12. AndyH

    AndyH Lieutenant

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    Not a fan of the solid hull/HP system at all. Interstellar Rift does this and it is incredibly arcady. You can't get out, locate and repair those critical patches with your multi-tool. You don't suffer secondary explosions that can blast a giant hole in the side of your ship that you have to replace, especially now with cold and vacuum effects. You don't have a gutted wreck that still has half its HP but is effectively destroyed. All that happens is your hull is structurally fine until it drops down to zero and the whole ship goes poof. The big thing I love about Emp is that is doesn't do this, yet is nowhere near as cumbersome as Space Engineers.

    Not sure what the solution is to improving performance. However, I do not believe any solution that removes the end results of block based styled damage is a positive impact to the game.
     
    #72
  13. Ken

    Ken Ensign

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    I dont think having both low end CPU/GPU functionality and a deep interesting game AND good visual emersion are compatible. the game could play on lower end computers better by removing cool features like ships having parts that can be added and removed, but then it's just not the same game at all. Other games have single entity character avatars that take damage and are eliminated and do the whole PvP thing far better by focusing on a limited balanced set of mechanics. There are great AAA titles to compete with, if empyrion was trying to be that I would have never bought it. The fact that I build the ship and can modify it and work on it is the #1 selling point to me. Maybe shield generators, at some point, but way down the road. I would say work on what they are doing, refine it, dont change everything chasing something developers with far more resources have yet to accomplish.

    I am on a GTX 760, I have to play on lower settings, I am not about to tell the devs to nerf the game so I dont have to upgrade, its not fair and it's not logical. There are games that will play better on my PC and I did not buy those because I wanted the details and emersion of Empyrion. If I want full settings I need to save the cash and invest in that aspect of my life. In the past I have had triple loop water cooled dual GPU monster (when I worked at an MMO doing content 'stuff') at the time it could handle any game as well as any PC on earth, it would have been lame to have no need because everything was coded for potatoes...
     
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  14. Cyntron

    Cyntron Ensign

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    I was thinking today; and forgive me if this has been mentioned. I just don't have a lot of time to read everything in this thread.

    The rules I thought would help if implemented.

    1: You must 'bake' together blocks into segments in a ship factory type structure/constructor.
    -> Remove all non-visible faces, sides, and points in which will maintain planar shape.
    2: The ship must have no greater than n segments. n being a number that is decided by the hosting server.
    -> This will limit the data needed for the server to save.
    -> This will also prevent players from abusing latency issues during battles by having high object count.
    -> Blueprints with segments greater than server allowance; would not be permitted to be spawned in said server.
    3: When the segments are damaged, the segment 'shatters' in smaller "sub-segmented" pieces.
    -> At the server end; a 'block-map' of the segment is stored in a database to later be referenced in the event of damage, or if the player wants to modify the segment.
    -> During a ship's movement; only the segments, and the damaged blocks of the sub-segmentation need updated via network serialization.
    4: There should be an auto-heal ability for all ships at different intervals. This will rejoin the sub-segmentation back into a whole segment.
    -> This will prevent players inadvertently causing network latency issues and server load during ship battles because they don't fix their ship.
    5: Each segment can be broken back down into blocks by a multi-tool. But a ship will be disabled until all segments are complete and baked.
    6: A player should have the ability to 'blueprint' their segments for use in other ships as well or to 'repair' their ship much faster with a new segment.
    7: Shields should definitely be an option. Bio-engineered blocks that heal much faster (to reassemble the segmentation).
     
    #74
  15. VISION305

    VISION305 Captain

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    Im certain that there is a technology that allows you to draw unto the ship or erase from the mesh. For example, each ship object keeps track of coordinates for itself where damage has happened. The ship draws certain meshes in those coordinates. It can even erase wholes in the mesh giving the appearance of breaches. I would think this technology would be worth investigating. I have seen a game do this. Star Citizen.

    It is similar to digging tunnels in some games. the game erases where you have dugout a cell. The same tech can be applied to a ship object. the ship keeps track of where it was hit, and then it does the opposite of drawing, it erases a whole where the damage has happened.
     
    #75
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  16. Cyrus the Virus

    Cyrus the Virus Lieutenant

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    I liked both, however, one giant block might be too much. Merged and subdivided external faces might be better.

    So instead of having a giant block, you would have top, bottom, left, right, front and rear. (If it were a cube ship)
     
    #76
  17. Kassonnade

    Kassonnade Captain

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    There could definitely be some "merging" done at the construction stage, where the player can choose to "merge" blocks for certain parts, especially when repeating said "part" occurs many times on a ship. Then a "copy / paste / place" function for such "mergers" would also ease building... I'm thinking Lego here... Destruction then could be applied to the merged blocks as a "whole", and of course while this approach is not a big performance saver it could at least reduce block count by a lot, while preserving a "per block" destruction model. For example, making slant segments require lots of blocks that will occupy a very small space while the same amount of cubes would occupy 3 of 4 times the space : if these "slant" sections could be merged into 1 block it would cut the block count reasonably, yet still leave the "per block" destruction model almost untouched in terms of space for a "disappearing block / section".
     
    #77
  18. Slimer

    Slimer Ensign

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    So....if i get it right:
    I can build a CV,two three comabt steal blocks thick,no visible engines (try to stop me from moving now) get hammered and....nothing happens for 20 mins then KABOOM in a blink !!!!!!!!!
    How can someone BOARD that ship and loot it OR even capture it? They cant apparently....its either constant pew pew or send to oblivion !!!!
    Doesnt sound like a good (viable) idea to me....
    Plus in Star Trek Online game you DONT need the resourses the enemy ship has (might get some drop loot if any),NO need to get on baord the enemy vessel,NO need to capture the enemy vessel,NO need to neutrilize the threat by ''stunning'' them....you just want them DEAD.thats why the have such mechanics there: A whole ship as one,giving streangth to your shields constanlty to keep your hull intact
    We cant have that here....i have a Class 52 CV in game with almost 43M hitpoints (and thats the Mk 2 version of it....i am using the Mk 3 !!!!)How someone can deal with it???? Ok.....hit me for an hour or so,loss a crapload of ammo to gain what eventually at the end????
    As i see it,from what i've read) when my hitpoints reach ''0'' i will explode...not just stay adrift !!!!!!!
    Plus.....who wants to go into battle and pew pew for HOURS.....cause we are talking about FLEETS in PvP against FLEETS !!!!
     
    #78
  19. VISION305

    VISION305 Captain

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    In essence what you are worried about is the balance of the numbers?
     
    #79
  20. Slimer

    Slimer Ensign

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    Not just numbers....But the actual benefit from that !!!!! The pros and cons.Will it worth it eventually? Can it be ''playable'' as an idea as we know the game today or will it change it completely into something else??? I cant tell. Thats my point !!!!!! So many parametetres should be taken in place and change that i am not so sure if its going to work as intended in practical use.How can you disable engines if are all hidden? How can you hit the core? How can you destroy a single door to board the ship? How can you take parts from it? I am dead sure i am missing something here but trying to get the thinking of it.Dont get me wrong
     
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