I agree seeing as how the beginning of the game is a survival situation. I would like to see some strict survival situations with little to no enemies, where it's our character vs the environment. I would like to see to see the evolutionary tech tree from spears to blasters, flint and steel to flame throwers, crafting bench to constructor. It would be nice to have a few primitive sources to fall back on if we choose to start without a survival constructor, or take away the survival constructor in some scenarios to force the player to use one built into the escape pod, making it virtually impossible to build early tech as the venture away from their escape pod in search for crash sites or POI's. This would require them to seek primitive means to survive. They could still construct a hover bike(dream vehicle) or a motorcycle to traverse the world, but at this point you would have to stay mobile to survive at the beginning, until you manage the construct a base.
I have said it before and included in the original post, but I never went in depth on the black market associated with illegal goods. Illegal goods in one area may be legal in another depending on the organization that governs the area. The government decisions to permit one substance as legal versus illegal will have various consequences, which can add additional content and suspense to playing the game. It would be fun to find/manufacture/procure/obtain said substances and have that risk/reward feature that may result in large rewards at the risk of loosing your ship or a steep fine, etc... This will also have a balancing feature where the organization may establish basic bounties on those in possession on illegal goods. The role of a bounty hunter will become a player option. Npc's will pay out bounties to effectively capture npc criminals by subduing them and taking them into custody. You could also recieve bounties for killing griefing players in PvP as their position pops up on your galaxy map.
Hey man I found a good series that explains our problem with the current system regarding auto miners.
Very cool video. After watching it i realize should amend my economic system to require all trading to be done through a market so that selling fees and sales taxes could be charged as money sinks, no direct player to player trading(or that screen could charge fees also). This would of course open up a black market because you could still just drop items on the ground to trade and bypass the fees but you run the risk of the person just grabbing your stuff and running away with it and not being able to do anything about it
Like a sales tax for trading. This is exactly the reason i pushed for having a blueprint charge as well. There has to be controls in place, but i would like them to be implemented in complex ways not easily seen as a nerf or obvious money/material sink. I also dont want it to create grinding, thats why i am for having npcs for hire. The more you have, the more mouths to feed, plus pay them a salary to stay motivated to perform better tasks and more efficiently. For instance a slave isnt going to be very efficient, whereas a paid employee will fight/work better and harder. This is one very effective sink. Extremely expensive Technologies,gear and kits that can be lost or destroyed in battle easily are other money sinks. Have the npc's gain levels and have their salary increase, if you dont pay them enough, then they leave and look for work elsewhere. Same thing with hired mercs and soldiers. Have repair droids and Battle droids that have expensive parts only purchaseable through the ingame market. You have to have stuff that cant be created. Certain items can be loot, but some things need to be specialty items only available in a npc shop with high price values. I think this would all work to balance and regulate an effective economy.
I finally got this watched... it was a worthy Vid! Now... if I was actually capable of comprehending how to apply this to In-Empyrion Ore & how to solve that conundrum...
Just saying here I dislike currency based anything as it removes half game content by being able to buy something you couldnt build yourself after grinding deposits for half hour. If you wanna trade, trade with a player that got resources by going where they were and mining not by spawning them for a variable. And risk being pirated by them instead of admin base shops that cant be attacked and PVE trade stations in otherwise PVP servers. Thats one of reasons other survival/building games' servers are bad - shops etc.
Ya make it sound like there's no way in hell a Player could ever be a LOT less powerful then other Forces on a Server & that Contesting the likes of powerful Factions is never not an available option.
Well. That would sure suck for RPG players or people who enjoy single player. It's not a bad thing adding an economy to a crafting game, in fact it's a great thing! It allows the player to make decisions and play the game differently. In a galaxy setting, you may be lightyears away from the nearest settlement or space station, so this may not even be a option. Prices in shops will most likely be more expensive than buying from another player. The thing about having npc shops and traders is that it allows players to spend currency they earned raiding POI's and earning currency though trade, smuggling and piracy, which opens up new avenues of gameplay and enriches the player experience.
well currently every planet and orbit I find has a trade station and admin station for some reason and its kinda crowded. And if there were fewer it would be simple to just go to a trading station wherever and get stuff same. npc trading is completely unnecessary as same can be done by players, and as in sp trading would be done by ai, players could exploit them as ai are not good. It would remove need to find any resources as you can just buy them. And trading with npcs spawns resources they didnt get themself like you would need to. raiding pois gives resources already what currency does it need to give, its pointless to have currencies you can simply get resources, idk what smuggling in empyrion would be as no items are banned and piracy is already done in pvp, in pve piracy would need whole alien civilizations to work, turning game into an Elite game where you just trade fight grind and buy ships and guns which is not survival. while it adds to gameplay it removes from gameplay too as its not same kind of game anymore, you only need to grind depoisits or go around bounty hunting/pirating and then just buy what you want instead of having to go to planets with resources you need then build it yourself, fighting enemies there for control of those resources, not money.
well currently every planet and orbit I find has a trade station and admin station for some reason and its kinda crowded. And if there were fewer it would be simple to just go to a trading station wherever and get stuff same. This will be changed, I'm sure when we get several solar systems. Hopefully by that point we have settlements, cities, multiple warring npc factions, law enforcement, pirates, freighters with npc traders crewing them and smugglers. At some point there will most likely be frontier worlds with nothing on them. Perhaps not even POIs; I know the devs want to introduce ruins as well, so I believe we will be seeing a lot more changes to the environment and planets will have different themes in general. Right now everything is bunched up on a small map. Later on you might land on a war ravaged planet with nothing but junk thats been picked clean by smugglers leaving nothing but rubbish. We will move on from where we are right now when lore is introduced and see the politics behind the zirax invasions and be introduced to new cultures. What we are seeing right now will be just a glimpse of the game to come, I'm sure of that. npc trading is completely unnecessary as same can be done by players, and as in sp trading would be done by ai, players could exploit them as ai are not good. In single player, if you just want to exploit the system, you aren't hurting anyone by doing it, and if you are fortunate to succeed and progress faster and you enjoy that kind of gameplay, more power to you. I don't use exploits bc it cheats the whole immersion factor for me. I disagree completely with the npc traders being unnecessary, bc we aren't seeing the whole scope of the game to come. We are just seeing place holders for something much bigger. I know that they had some positions they hired for an artist and a story writer a while back, so I'm expecting a lot in this area. I'm kind of surprised that someone is questioning the need for a in-depth economy. It can make or break a game and what civilization exists without currency. Did you read the posts in this thread which covered the importance and benefits of a balanced economy? I get that some players just want to craft items, and that's great, but some part of having a true mission based system is centered around having a balanced reward system. It would remove need to find any resources as you can just buy them. And trading with npcs spawns resources they didnt get themself like you would need to. Not necessarily, each player will find their niche. PvP will look for loot in ships and bases they destroyed like they always did before. PvE will find a balance in crafting and raiding POI's as well as selling their wares to vendors. RPG players will seek out hiring npc's and employing them, running their mining corporation, playing the roles of smugglers, pirates, LEO's and running all the story based missions/content and completing npc missions. Survivalists will keep grinding away with early game gameplay and playing the crafting system and turning up the difficulty. Engaging entire Npc factions in all-out-war by themselves. Explorers will push them limits of their CV's to see everything the game has to see and finding all the new weapons and goodies. raiding pois gives resources already what currency does it need to give, its pointless to have currencies you can simply get resources, idk what smuggling in empyrion would be as no items are banned and piracy is already done in pvp, in pve piracy would need whole alien civilizations to work, turning game into an Elite game where you just trade fight grind and buy ships and guns which is not survival. How can you judge a system that doesn't exist yet? Be optimistic and let the devs do their thing before saying something won't work that hasn't even been introduced yet. The system will be balanced in time as they see how the economy works. As always, play the way you like to play but don't shoot down a majority that doesn't like to grind and do monotonous tasks to progress in a game. while it adds to gameplay it removes from gameplay too as its not same kind of game anymore, you only need to grind depoisits or go around bounty hunting/pirating and then just buy what you want instead of having to go to planets with resources you need then build it yourself, fighting enemies there for control of thoseresources, not money. I posted an informative video that covers all of this in depth. Money sinks are important to get rid of resources when you are playing MMO's. Did you ever play Runescape, WOW, Everquest, Star Wars Galaxies, Diablo or any of the thousand good examples out there? You have to throw away resources at a decent rate to keep players from progressing too fast. If there isn't a in game currency, players find a way to develop another currency, for example: Iron, Fiber and Med kits in the pre 4.0 Empyrion. If the currency or items becomes to inflated which renders them useless, then you have to balance it out to make it harder to get those components or the currency. In a space faring society, I believe they would have moved past bartering and use credits as a form of currency, seeing as modern society uses currency to pay for transactions. Bartering isn't common in civilized society, and is frowned upon by most governments that want to tax the populous into oblivion, but that is a whole different subject. Either way, I agree with your points in some aspects, but I still believe this game needs a balanced Economy centered around the in-game currency which is the Credit.
I feel like I failed to answer these two categories, so I'll try to address them here. raiding pois gives resources already what currency does it need to give, its pointless to have currencies you can simply get resources, idk what smuggling in empyrion would be as no items are banned and piracy is already done in pvp, So I have made the point to establish a black market and pushed for illegal items in the OP, so that is for sure something that needs to be added. As far as raiding POI's and getting resources, materials and currency need to be reassigned to common sense areas. What zirax is going to be walking around with a bowl of dino stew for instance? Dino stew should be found in a fridge. As for cargo boxes, it depends on what the theme of the POI is, as to what should be found there. It makes sense to get ammo, medpacks and currency off a zirax. What Zirax is going to carry are iron ore and magesium ore? Thats just one example of many that I could go into, so I'll save you the boredom of reading them all. in pve piracy would need whole alien civilizations to work, Exactly what I'm pushing for! We need civilizations/politics/war/diplomacy to make make this whole theme work. turning game into an Elite game where you just trade fight grind and buy ships and guns which is not survival. Please spare me the pain of waiting for new updates @Hummel-o-War @piddlefoot if this is the end goal of this game. I'll give you a notice that I'm gone as soon as this game is purely a survival based game. Oh I have a foul taste in my mouth, let me go vomit in the corner, I'll be back later. while it adds to gameplay it removes from gameplay too as its not same kind of game anymore, you only need to grind depoisits or go around bounty hunting/pirating Well that's only two of 10+ projected ways to play the game, but who am I to suggest that the economy may just be the nail in the coffin for Empyrion. It is going to open new ways to play the game, so we don't just sit here collecting our auto miners or flipping our damn hv's over like a patient with a seizure. I love the thought that I may be able to be a farmer and raise lizard mules and harvest my corn fields some day. Sorry I love Harvest Moon. and then just buy what you want instead of having to go to planets with resources you need then build it yourself, fighting enemies there for control of thoseresources, not money. Hmm....again someone telling me I have to play the way they want me to play when I'm playing a sandbox game.
With civilizations/politics/war/diplomacy player is reduced to a pawn in giant civilizations that spawn ships and cities and million times resources you got in your total time with empyrion. Whatever ships or buildings you have mean nothing and you can just use civilization's stuff cheaper. Whats the point of building anything then? To have a different looking ship or building in a sea of those? rn player's stuff has way more impact on empyrion than any poi or ai ship/building and you want to drown it in a thousand npc ships only to have money working with npcs ingame? And second part - I dont get what yourse saying here. Im not telling you should play a game some way. If anything youre forcing me to play it your way by making my way pointless. Why go for resouces when you can just buy them. really, I never go to admin/trade stations when playing singleplayer because theyre a blatant shortcut to any resources that completely breaks resource gathering part of game by offering you anything for some money grinding. On servers doing so puts you at a disadvantage obviusly so its now a forced part of game as its more efficient than getting resources yourself which until trade stations was integral part of game and is now something you only do if youre broke else just buy buy buy. Im saying you have to go to planets with resources you need to get them and fight whoever is there if anyone to get them, intead of fighting someone random for a mission to get money and then just buy those resources at a trade station. Or just a whole ship why bother building it when you can just buy it. Because going somewhere to mine/forage resources and then build something with them is pointless in shop based game where you can just buy anything after doing random missions or grinding something only for money. That part of game is removed by adding yours. Sorry but as soon as empyrion becomes a game like this where youre a freelancer in a giant civilization doing missions for money buying ships etc, Im gone from it too. If I wanted to play such a game Id play eve online or X series.
First of all, damn thats a long post with a lot to address lol With civilizations/politics/war/diplomacy player is reduced to a pawn in giant civilizations that spawn ships and cities and million times resources you got in your total time with empyrion. Thank God, this is what I've wanted the whole time. It's a universe and I'm just one player in the mix. How can I conquer a planet, let alone the universe single handedly? Whatever ships or buildings you have mean nothing and you can just use civilization's stuff cheaper. We aren't looking at this from a realistic perspective, it has turned into an emotional response to: I'm taking this away from you and you don't want me too. Look at it it a logical sense, it makes sense. People consume materials and go to stores to replace them. Sure if all we had 3d printers we might use them to cut out the need for buying some items, but some things will never be replaced by food processors or constructors. I will never be able to harvest a coconut from a tree in Dallas, Texas. I have to go to a grocery store to get it. Same thing with Empyrion. The Economy should be set up differently throughout the galaxy based on supply and demand with fluctuating prices. A coconut in Dallas will be more expensive in a DFW Kroger grocery store than a local store in a area where they are harvesting coconuts. Whats the point of building anything then? To have a different looking ship or building in a sea of those? Well whats the point in playing at all then, I guess I'll just give up on life any Empyrion. Just do it! There are way better builders out there than me and I still like to build, it's fun. I was just about to give up on the Army and get out when I got back bc my career wasn't going anywhere and I thought I was being passed up. That was 4 weeks ago. Now I just graduated from a NCO Academy and was justed promoted to SGT after 7 yrs of waiting. The point is to stay optimistic and hunt the good stuff, and yes it applies to the game too. You can play different ways and everything doesn't have to be the end of the world. More to follow, I'll address the rest.
rn player's stuff has way more impact on empyrion than any poi or ai ship/building and you want to drown it in a thousand npc ships only to have money working with npcs ingame? For the sake of fun and active gameplay, sure why not. I would love to see more fast paced gameplay that gets the mind racing. As far as resources, i will restate a previous point. We need Money sinks and better resource management to alleviate the collection of resources too fast in the game. And second part - I dont get what yourse saying here. Im not telling you should play a game some way. If anything youre forcing me to play it your way by making my way pointless. Sure, we are both confused on this one. Let's skip that bc that was never my intention. Why go for resouces when you can just buy them. Well lets see.....you sell resources for Money, take the Money, and buy resources. Its a circle and that circle is called an economy.
really, I never go to admin/trade stations when playing singleplayer because theyre a blatant shortcut to any resources Hmm.....so you are telling me that these traders are giving you stuff for free and not charging you. That means the Government isn't getting any SALES TAX, let me know their name so I can turn them in. Npc Name: Npc Species: Npc Nationality: Npc Origin: Do they smoke?: Do they enjoy long walks on the beach?: Where do they Reside?: Brief description of your enounter with this thug: that completely breaks resource gathering part of game by offering you anything for some money grinding. Again there was a action (mining/looting), you recieved currency and resources, and a reaction where you in turn fed your Constructor the components or took your happy ass to the npc trader and joyfully gave those credits to the trader in turn for some canned vegetables. Either way this was an example of the current Economy in action On servers doing so puts you at a disadvantage obviusly so its now a forced part of game as its more efficient than getting resources yourself which until trade stations was integral part of game and is now something you only do if youre broke else just buy buy buy. Not sure what game you are playing because with auto miners the way they are it is rediculously easy to have everything you need to build anything your heart desires. Im saying you have to go to planets with resources you need to get them and fight whoever is there if anyone to get them, intead of fighting someone random for a mission to get money and then just buy those resources at a trade station. Or just a whole ship why bother building it when you can just buy it. Again we might as well just all quit playing Empyrion, since nothing is going our way anymore
Because going somewhere to mine/forage resources and then build something with them is pointless in shop based game where you can just buy anything after doing random missions or grinding something only for money. That part of game is removed by adding yours. So what we need in game is better pacing and balancing, which is what I am promoting Sorry but as soon as empyrion becomes a game like this where youre a freelancer in a giant civilization doing missions for money buying ships etc, Im gone from it too. If I wanted to play such a game Id play eve online or X series. So you are saying if Empyrion becomes a game with story, lore, a balanced Economy and npc interactions you are no longer going to play? Look I've been an sarcastic asshole in replying to this post, but in reality Im always a sarcastic asshole, so thats nothing new. Yes, the name is Empyrion Galactic Survival but that is only a small part of the game. We are looking at a game that encompasses many different gamer types and genres, so everything you fear is most likely going to happen. Adapt and overcome man, thats all I can say to you. There are a few changes that drove me off the walls at first, but some of them really aren't that bad when you see the end result and get to play the game for what it is.
How would you go about structuring pricing for resources in a balanced economy? Two solutions right off the bat: 1. Resources will be sold at Trade stations to Market Traders. This will yield more in return than the alternative. 2. Various NPC Traders (General Store) that will accept buying ores. They will give the lowest rate per ore which will be only worth selling if you need a quick buck bc you ran out of money. Structuring a Market In order to implement a market, I believe you could base it off the percentage of available ore per sector and set the ratio to: ore availability per sector + difficulty of aquiring that ore = set price of ore in that area. This would allow for varying prices across the galaxy with an ever changing market price. This would work fine for single player, since the mines won't replenish unless you start a new game. The downside to this solution is the fact that multiplayer uses meteorites to ensure there is unlimited resources available to the players. The obvious fix for this problem would be to remove meteorites altogether and force players to explore new worlds to ensure the flood of resources into the market is reduced, but this only works if the game saves the ammount of ore sold to the market. What I propose is the game temporarily saves ores in the market for 48 hours of server time and then deletes it, or the game deletes 20% of the ore sold into the market for every 24 hours of server time. (This could be adjusted to an ideal percentage and should be adjustible through YAML) (The reason for not using the 48 hr one is bc the server would have to keep track of each group individually and put a delete time which would just add another process to bog down our cpu) This allows the players to sell ore to the the market but doesnt allow players to drive prices down to a point where a certain ore is way overstocked and can be purchased easier than mined. Selling ores would yield only a small percentage per individual ore based on availability per sector. Galactic Market vs Sector/System Market system I would propose having two markets available in game. Galactic Market Buying ores off the the Galactic Market would be available only at the System's Trade Station. These ores would be overpriced at the Galactic average + 20% which would make it much higher than than the same ore purchased in the System's market. Galactic Market would would be the same across the board and would be an average of all prices + 20% across the galaxy. There wouldn't be a way to sell directly to the Galactic Market, bc it would draw directly from a available system market. This is why it would be more expensive to buy from th Galactic Market bc it requires the transfer of goods between markets. Sector/System Market This market is only available in Sector or System. It regulates prices of ores by availability and is available for access via any trade station, or public space station. This is the only market players can sell ores to.
