All good, this is no tribunal. And should never become one. Glad that post seemed to be interesting. (If the 'subscription' might be a player's trigger word - - It's maybe connected with stuff people don't always control, and have no chance to adapt to - - even if they maybe would like to! E.g. how much money the players make/ would invest into a game, and how the game development would be influenced by a new monetization model. Things you can't really change will make your highest emotions. Now enter somebody, who says: "Hey guys, I'm convinced the government should drastically raise the taxes. For- -(rest is drowned out) " )
The "small team size" is not unusual, if we compare to the whole "independant studio" population. Many games have substantial content and only 1 developer, and the factor that is common to most if not all of these "developer models" is time : it takes more time to achieve the same when fewer people involved (excluding geniuses and workaholics who work around the clock from that statement). I think players have an impatient nature on average, but maybe less in the older category... hem... One sentence that comes back regularly in the release notes is "we thank you (again) for your wonderful support and patience". The reasons why some features have been delayed vary, so unless you ask for specific elements there is not "general" answer. But I can positively affirm that we got most answers many times in the past, and that there was the need to implement core features before diving into adding more content and polishing assets/ removing "placeholders". We can see logic in there, as it would have been total waste of money to hire (for example) a small team of animators and modelers to work on some content that, because the code can't be made to work, has to be thrown aside. That's a waste of money that Eleon simply avoided by doing things they way they did. As for the worries that Eleon is going to lack the funds to complete the game, I want you (and others with similar worries) to reflect on this : Two years ago (more or less) I saw from Steam Spy that the game had 350 000 "owners". With this number we can extrapolate some reasonable figures about where things stood at that time. First bear in mind that at the "kickstarter" stage Eleon only asked for 50 000$ to "complete the game" with a short period being in Early Access. Things went on quite differently, and roughly 2 years after the beginning of Early Access we had that number (350 k owners). Make that 300 k owners that bought the game at 50% discount, to have a very, very conservative estimate of what they could have earned already (gross income) two years ago : 3 million dollars. That's 60 times more than what they expected from Kickstarter + Early Access in their early assessment. Now we're 2 years later, and Steam Spy puts the numbers somewhere between 500 k and 1 million owners - let's make that at 600 k to stay inside the "conservative estimate" range. That's a growth of nearly double the player base from two years before (at 300+ k). Make any assumption you want here, but let me suggest that we have reasonable grounds to believe them when they tell us that they're not doing the v1.0 for a cash grab. And finally, consider this : either you believe what Eleon says, or you don't. If you don't believe them when they say they will continue to work on the game and they are not doing it for money, why would you want to give them more money while thinking they lied to us ? Let me suggest that this standpoint can not hold, especially given the numbers I gave previously. And this also shows that Eleon, by doing things their way and resisting the pressure to risk hiring new talents (like @Mirosya depicted) they indeed had all control on their budget and incidentally on the results. And just to repeat what they have told us a few times now : you want to support the game ? Suggest it to friends, talk about it, buy and gift copies. That is the safest way to do it, and the game is not dumped for a Empyrion II with a very angry player base looking at an unfinished v1.x. .
Most of those games are far more simple in their scope - 2D puzzle games and the like. Most comparable games of have a larger team. I gave DU as an example and I suspect Space Engineers is the same. Theoretically infinite time and one developer could achieve anything, but if the Kickstarter has said walking on moving ships would be completed after 10 years for example, I think many people would have not been as enthusiastic about the game. That's not a criticism of the devs, which I have said over and over. I'm saying that the potential isn't being achieved, and that's because the speed of development is a factor in the output of the game at any given point in time. Comparing infinite or even a vague unspecified time with a specific time frame isn't a useful comparison in my opinion. So could you be specific as to when you'd like or estimate the game leaving what we'd normally call beta? That way we can actually compare apples with apples here. I've repeatedly *not* blamed the devs or claimed dishonesty. While I'm sure it wasn't intentional on your part, it's a little frustrating to repeatedly have to answer red herrings and have it suggested my argument is due to impatience, attacking someone, or lacking knowledge about the game (in discord stuff like "you need to play the game more and understand the core issues"), all the while avoiding engaging with the positive things I'm actually saying. You've been polite, but I think the insinuation is there and it's getting fairly challenging to wear that again and again. To your point, given your own estimation and the following: 8 staff x $90,000 average salary x 5 years = $3,600,000. That's not including other costs, for software tools, severs, advertising, the significant cut that steam takes. I believe them when they say they are not about to run out of money. But I don't think we have reason to think they could easily hire 10 new staff and have simply chosen not to, and I don't think we should assume they wouldn't run into some significant financial barriers in say 3 years if sales were to significantly dropped off because they reached saturation in their niche. So assuming all popular features will arrive if there is patience, even if we are (I think very unreasonably) dismissive about people having to wait years, is deeply problematic. I don't think a general sense of patience is the answer. I think it's maintaining a good momentum, a good business model, and recognising after years most big software projects need revitalisation. I'm not a dev and I'm not in a position to propose how the devs should run the business. But some of the assumptions that keep coming up about the business model are not correct.
I'm thinking about games like the X series (1 developer), or Executive Assault 1 & 2 (1 dev, still early access for EA2), or even games like Supreme Commander (2 devs), Rodina (1 dev - full 3d system/ planets). These are not puzzles, and while not being voxel-based I think that by searching a bit we can find many others with relative complexity and smaller teams than Eleon. Also note that Empyrion has benefitted from the community's contribution regarding lots of content, whereas the other games I mentioned (and many others) did not. Almost forgot Minecraft, which had one main programmer only for the first years but honestly that's besides the point. You're mentioning only "walking on a moving ship" and this falls exactly in the category of things that were answered many times before. There are threads opened regularly on this, and the answers are still the same : not doable until everything else works fine and all colliders are revised. Empyrion is very, very far from "infinite development time" and Dual Universe/ Space Engineers are also still under development, with much different teams and budget. I don't see where you're going at with this anyway. If you keep on dismissing what the developers have told us repeatedly regarding why and how they work and will work on the game, how do you call this ? "Honestly not believing them" ? Unfortunately I can't interpret your perceptions, and it's clear from the previous answers you got here that your suggestion points to either a lack of trust in the developer's will to continue working on the game or that "it will never be finished". Honestly even that has been addressed, Minecraft if the perfect example here. I made a very conservative estimate, and you make the absolute contrary. Just a little research and you would have found some reasonable numbers, and that 8 staff working for 5 years is a rabbit out of your hat, especially concerning the first years of development. https://www.salary.com/research/salary/posting/video-game-programmer-salary Here's another one, and notice the numbers are not coming from a small indie developer environment : they're all top-rated studios : https://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Video_Game_Designer/Salary The median is 65 000/ year. They (Eleon) may have already hired junior designers, so this is less than 65 k. We can't even say they hired anyone for a whole year, for all we know. And that is why I made a very conservative estimate and kept only 300 k out of 350 k (which is already the minimal lower bracket). I don't think Eleon gave away 50 000 free game keys ! And I did put all sales at 50% discount. Just remember that at the kickstarter stage, they only asked for 50 000 to "finish the game" : were they "lying" to their audience ? Is it not more reasonable to believe what they told us when leaving Early Access, that they did not think at first that their game would grow so much, and get that amount of support ? How could a small team of programmers not be able to wrap things up very comfortably with (my estimate) 3,5 millions, when they only projected 50 k at first ? Do you think that for these same guys, hiring 8 x 90 k $/ year top programmers full time is coherent with that ? That's why I prefer to trust what they tell us, and at least I'm not making gross numbers out of nowhere : I took the lowest possible estimate and even cut down from there. They told us that they were not following "classical development schedule" and this is also something we either believe, or we don't. And that is very much what all this comes down to : trust. Now I'm sorry if something did not go well on Discord. That's why I prefer forums : we can take the time to write and amend text, but for speech it's not the same. See no ill intention in my arguments here, and I understand how you may feel if all answers you got up to now do not reflect what you expected. I'm not saying you have "bad intentions to distrust the developers", I'm just stating my own perception regarding how you voiced your opinion here, that seem dismissive of what we have been told a few times already. .
I acknowledge my estimate was on the high side, but it wasn't wild exaggeration as you make out. Senior developers are above the median just as junior are below. Not to mention you appear to be making assumptions that there is to be no profit taking beyond a salary to account for the risk involved (why would anyone start a risky business if it pays the same as a salary), and that there are others costs I mentioned that you minimise or ignored. A 30% difference in salary would still leave my argument unchanged - there are significant costs here and assuming in the absence of inside knowledge that finance does not play a role in decisions about team size is completely unjustified, as is the assumption that increasing team size provides no benefits, which has been repeatedly claimed in this thread. But what really is ridiculous is your twisting of what I say to pretend I am somehow against the devs. Its been others that say they don't trust the devs, as reason to reject my suggestion. I never agreed with them. I literally say: "We haven't been ripped off by Empyrion, it's obviously been good value for money." and "if we're honest about it, most of us have paid a couple of cents per hour for some of the best gaming fun around. That's why we're here." I've argued *repeatedly* that we have gotten great value for money from this product, and it makes ZERO sense to argue for a sequel if I didn't think the devs were actively making the game better. If that's not enough for you, you'll have to attack your straw men without me.
You are again forgetting about the 50 k they projected at first. Where's the "profit" in there ? That's your interpretation of what I wrote. This is from your first post : May I ask you what do you know about the "reality" of what's going on at Eleon, first ? I'm not saying you are "against the devs" here : I'm saying you are making up facts that the developers themselves made clear were not considered : they are not "running out of steam", they did not mention a problem with Unity (and that has been covered here), and "investing in the future" is exactly what they are doing by continuing work on the game. So in essence, you're just throwing out the window all what they mentioned in the 2 posts explaining their move out of Early Access. Tell me you believed what they wrote, and it invalidates what you wrote in your OP. Tough luck. I suggest we wait and see what the december patch brings about. It will not be Space Engineers nor Dual Universe nor Eve Online, but we'll be one step closer to "infinity deadline". Maybe we can even be a bit optimistic. .
In my opinion fix the bugs and polishing this that does not work to a level that works, is the developers duty, they should not charge for this.
@Average - I'm not really a subscription-based player, but good discussion & good points. I personally would welcome & eagerly anticipate Empyrion 2, if it somehow delivered these features faster than simply continuing on (with Empyrion 1 dev). OK cue dream mode for a moment, most are AI related: Order an AI to pilot a different SV or CV and follow me around (be my wingman) Assign AI to man fighter SVs that scramble & help defend my base or fly patrols. Assign AI to transport cargo from one location (or base) to another (optionally on a schedule) Flowing Water & Waterfalls Volcanoes with Flowing Lava Caves & Interesting Underground Spaces Interesting Terrain Features, like Ravines, Blue Holes, you name it Vast Underwater Ecosystem Large Alien Wildlife that behave in dangerous & interesting ways. Example - Big plants with giant tentacles that seek to grab player, reel him in & swallow him whole [with a chance to escape, provided you can cut tentacle(s) in time], Giant flyers that swoop in, sting & paralyze player, and carry him off to a mountain-top nest to be devoured later. Giant marine life that can swallow player whole. Basically wildlife that can kill player off bypassing hitpoints. Also some giant wildlife that can genuinely threaten smaller vessels. Quicksand - Again can kill player in one go, if you fail to free yourself in time Grappling Hooks? (in part to counter the Quicksand) AI Factions attacking other AI Factions, civilized factions hunting wildlife, wildlife hunting other wildlife. Dynamic AI Faction Territory Control - Including sometimes a faction shows up a planet new to them & start taking over that world AI Attack vessels built from blocks piloted by real flesh & blood AIs that can disembark - More than that single PV or whatever per playfield, plus as an alternative to all the drones, or rather instead of so many drones AI Factions doing interesting things out in the world (way beyond just walking around) & in space - For example maybe they send out a SV Evac to resuce that Zirax pilot who ejected when you (or another faction) shot his SV down Oh yeah, and the whole walk around on moving (potentially autopiloted) ships thing ^ Again, this is my dream feature list. Cut & replace with you own dream features for the purposes of this discussion. I feel like I got my money for Empyrion 20x already (or more), even considering I bought 5+ copies, and if Eleon dropped everything E1 and started making this Empyrion 2 game, I would be all in. But, and this is a big but... if & only if halting current Empyrion 1 dev & starting Empyrion 2 dev was actually the fastest way to get these new features. Put another way, unfortunately I can only guess about: How many of these dream features are we likely to get within the next 2-3 years if Empyrion 1 dev continues? How many of these dream features are we likely to get within the next 2-3 years if Empyrion 1 dev halts & Empyrion 2 dev begins? (This question of course assumes an absolutely huge amount of reuse of Empyrion 1 code, in all places where it makes sense technically while still achieving the new features) I think any of us non-Eleon devs could strongly argue this case either way. Conversely, the devs of course have the best insight on how to achieve the most in the shortest period of time. Regardless of direction, be it continued E1 dev, sequels, or DLCs, I will continue to support Eleon, pretty much by always buying 5 of everything they make [one for me, one for my dad, two for my nephews, 1+ for a random friend(s)]. Unless they go to a subscription based model (or literally start selling hats), and then I'm out.
Again you're twisting words. That's not what I said. I said we are not on a path for multiple popular requested features to be achieved in the near future. I also say budgets matter, and now the conversation has pivoted away from that to false claims about what I'm saying because that's what people would prefer to talk about rather than the more positive stuff in my post. I didn't claim to know everything of what's going on. In fact I said the opposite - we can't make an assumption that finances are unlimited. That's a perfectly reasonable claim. Only in your head. Luck has nothing to do with it. You're just needlessly making this into a snarky conversation and seem more interested in "beating" me than having a constructive conversation. I haven't attacked you beyond repeatedly asking you to stop twisting my words. Stop making claims about what I said. If you want to put your opinion on the topic maybe you need to make a more positive post of your own instead of making snarky comments on my post. Add something more positive of your own if you believe you have something useful to contribute.
That's exactly what you wrote ! That's a quote from your message ! Are you becoming nuts now ? That's "twisting" words ! You claimed to know "something" and even that you can't prove. It was not an "assumption" - that quote is very clear, again. You should just accept what you wrote and not try to give it another meaning afterwards that doesn't even fit your own claims. You chose these words I quoted as a cheap sales pitch to make us believe Eleon will never deliver and it will take forever and blablabla. Of course we can all dream of a nice sequel with tons of features. But there's no need to try to make the actual game a disaster with no hope. It's not just a question of making cute suggestions, it's about trying to impress your readers with fear that Eleon can't deliver. The answer was clear and "democratic" : they should finish v1 before asking us to fund a v2. Is that so hard to grasp ?
@Kassonnade. I didn't say Eleon is running out of steam, I said the project progress / feature development is, and the context was that is because adding to a 5 year old coding project is very difficult. Saying that I was saying that about Eleon greatly changes its meaning. Well it's pretty obvious this has become a non-productive personal disagreement. We've put our perspectives, let's move on for the sake of others here. We both like this game and filling up the forum with this kind of content isn't helpful to the game.
It's just a few days (experimental) or weeks (public) ahead before we get the first significant "post - Early Access" release. Let's just wait see from there.
I totally agree with this. If the payoff for some sort of re-write was too far into the future, I would say that it may not be worth it. My guess is that it would be, but all of us are going on limited knowledge on Eleon and ultimately it's their project. Maybe my perspective added something to the options, maybe not. I wasn't quite expecting to get piled on the way I did, but if it's a contribution to the project in some way it would be easily worth it. Thanks for the comment.
I actually quite like what they've done with Thades - The graphics is very mixed - some things looks amazing, some things are a bit unfinished or problematic. I love the very shiny surfaces and some of the planetary shapes, but yes you're right the biome details are very hit and miss. Their night time lighting is awful for some reason, though the sunsets look amazing. I guess we will see how it evolves.
Here, one "nice" game made with the Unity engine : We can see it uses "classical" animation (no motion capture) and this is just to give an idea of what can be done with the engine. Leaving the voxel/ building aspect aside, all aspects of gameplay can be enhanced on the actual "code base".
Don't take it personal mate. We all know that you mean good and can see the huge potential of this game.
I'm all for a new project (another Empyrion game or something else) but I don't agree with your other points, as already pointed out subscription models only make sense for lare scale MMO's and those take millions to make and the chances of Eleon tackling those kind of projects are non-existant. And of course starting a new project and finishing Empyrion are not mutually exlusive, game studios working on a new title while still providing support for their current game is a pretty common thing.
This is an interesting topic. I have 10 years of experience working in software engineering and there is one lesson above all to keep in mind, mostly for the devs. "No matter how far down the wrong path you have gone, turn back." There are books written about software engineering citing this "proverb" and it has proven to be true time and time again in my experience. I love Empyrion, the concept, and the potential it has. However, the game seems to be stalled since I purchased it a few years ago. Yes the big additions include new solar systems, more blocks, more factions, and more really cool POI's. Even civilians, which is great fore a little side exploration. But the interaction with each of these is the same old interaction you have with every other AI in the game. Empyrion requires you to be very self-motivated to play it so the bigger value is the Minecraft-style sandbox where you can build things. But in Empyrion you can then use those things! This is way better than Minecraft where it's mostly just a work of art. But, I find, using those things in Empyrion becomes boring quickly. Here's what I would like to see. Give the gamer a goal. There should always something to work towards but keep it open world so it's optional when to engage but always something that keeps the gamer working towards something bigger. This means giving the gamer a reason to leave the planet (okay, done, you have to find other more rare resources on the moon). But then why should the gamer leave the solar system? To find new species that behave very similar to the ones on the home world? To find the exact same flora and fauna as the original home world? Etc. The different planets are cool but the game should answer the question, why should I leave the solar system? Great, I built a new CV, I got the resources, and I spawned it! Now what? The different stars are cool, new planet types are cool, but what keeps the player going? At first I thought it was going to be resource depletion but when I turned Autominer depletion ON, turns out that only depletes Promethium and Pentaxid. The space territories are great but what drives me in to one or the other? Why go fight the Zirax only to conquer a planet exactly like the one I just came from? Give me a reason to make it to the center of each factions territory! This gives the gamer motivation to build or spawn new bases, CV's and other support vehicles (SV's and HV's) to complete that objective. The presentation would go a long way too. The missions are in text format. Also, some text pops up when a threat/drone pops up...and guess what, you can't even move to defend yourself or your ship as long as the mission text is displayed (some of this may have been recently improved)! The AI is as interactive as a cardboard box. The aerodynamics are better than they used to be (especially water dynamics) but are still inadequate. To really bring this game to the next level (ideally), the missions should present themselves like the missions/storyline in Subnautica. The AI interaction should be more like Red Dead Redemption. And the flight dynamics should be closer to Elite Dangerous or similar space flight games. Of course, for a game like Empyrion where you can build your own things, I don't expect such realism and it's no flight simulator so that's okay. But when an HV spins out of control because it crosses the "seam" or texture line on a planet...unacceptable. When speed falls to '0' because I transitioned from the atmosphere into orbit/space, which then causes my SV to fall back into atmosphere and then repeat that a few times before it finally stays in orbit...unacceptable. Or when "gliding" with the power off means the SV just sort of unrealistically floats towards the ground... If it takes a new engine to do all that, then I fully support that. If the current game engine is the "wrong road/path", then absolutely fix it! Any development effort spent to add Band-Aids to this game would be wasted funds. If not, and the above things won't all be improved, then effort is better just spent on improving mission presentation, AI interaction, and overall game dynamics from the current state. The biggest thing in this case would be fixing all the bugs. I've seen so many bugs reappear after being fixed or other ones that just take all the fun out of gameplay (at least survival) that I end up waiting 6 months or so, then play again, only to find out that there is a poker game in the trading station and the Talon have new robes...I think time could be spent a little more wisely in either case, new engine or not. My friends have mostly stopped playing the game but I hold out hope because I really believe in this concept.
